HVAC Shifts & Multifamily Insights

[Paul Rhodes] (0:02 - 3:00) Welcome to The Maintenance Mindset, an audio-video podcast brought to you by the Multifamily Media Network. I'm your host, Paul Rhodes, and over the more than three decades in the apartment industry, I've had roles that include being on-site, providing services as a vendor, creating and delivering multiple education programs, and active association work. This podcast is centered on the often overlooked role that our on-site maintenance workers play.

You know, the men and women that respond in the middle of the night to the toilet call, or the after hours, it's really, really hot in my apartment request, or my favorite, my ring fell down the drain, get over here now. In other words, the often unsung heroes who are responsible for asset preservation and resident satisfaction. Working in multifamily maintenance provides interesting, sometimes amusing, and often fascinating stories and viewpoints.

My encouragement to you is this, whatever you do, do it with a maintenance mindset. Today, we have a special episode for you of The Maintenance Mindset on the Multifamily Media Network. I was asked recently to join Clifton Beck, who is the podcast host of Did You Know?

The Esco HVAC Show. And we had a little bit over an hour-long discussion about the current pain points that the multifamily industry is experiencing regarding air conditioning changes that are going to occur next year. If you've listened to several of my episodes, I have referenced them in various kinds and methodologies, and the reality is it's going to happen.

Now, our conversation was wide ranging. We talked about tools. We talked about the regulatory environment.

We even gave the history of refrigerants and a lot of common misconceptions. If, through our discussion, you have any questions, feel free to head over to the Multifamily Media Network and ask them. Oh, one more thing.

I will be speaking next year at the HVAC Excellence Conference in Vegas on March 16th through 19th. If you really want to get into a deep dive, that's the best place for it. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy and have a fantastic rest of your week.

I'll definitely see you somewhere. Your service teams enjoy the gamification of maintenance. Visit appworkco.com and transform your productivity today.

[Clifton Beck] (3:00 - 3:16) Today, we're joined by another fellow podcaster, Paul Rhodes from Maintenance Mindset. How are you, my friend? Fantastical.

Great to see you. You as well. And for those who don't know, Paul is also considered the Billy Graham of the apartment maintenance industry.

I had to go there, didn't I?

[Paul Rhodes] (3:16 - 3:28) Oh, gosh. Okay. I aspire to be the Billy Graham.

If we're going to go with that as a label or a term, that's like an aspirational thing.

[Clifton Beck] (3:28 - 3:38) I agree. Oh, I get it. I have been recently called the Mr. Rogers of the HVAC industry because I just like to sit there and tell stories. So sometimes we get labels whether we want them or not.

[Paul Rhodes] (3:39 - 4:04) I think I'm going to eventually have a business card made that just says Weirdo Loudmouth Maintenance Guy and hand that out because that's kind of it. I like thinking of weird thoughts specifically about being an apartment maintenance technician and just how much fun and great that is as an industry.

[Clifton Beck] (4:04 - 4:37) What's going on, Bob? He said, people. He said, there's days I absolutely love my job and there's days that I just don't know what to think about my job.

He said, there's things that happen in this kind of work that you just don't ever expect to see and I've just seen it. I'm like, well, all right. Tell us more.

Sounds like we've got a great story for today. He says, all right. So you remember when you came by and you helped me pull that commode off the wall?

I was like, yep. He said, well. So I went down to the shop to get a wax ring and I came back up and somebody pooped in my commode.

Right on the hallway.

[Paul Rhodes] (4:38 - 4:41) Hey, when you gotta go. You gotta go.

[Clifton Beck] (4:43 - 7:49) If that's any indicator what kind of show we're going to have today, boy, you are all in for a treat. We are going to have so much fun today. Well, Rhodes, how are you, sir?

I'm doing fantastic. It's great to see you again. And hello everybody.

Oh my gosh. If you've missed that episode, you got to go check that out. That was the episode that we did.

It's been quite a few weeks ago, but it's still doing really well out there. People love hearing the stories about, you know, what it's like working in property maintenance, some of the fun we have, some of the crazy stories that we have, things that we get involved with. And it really is an enjoyable place to be.

I love my time that I spent doing property maintenance. And hey, isn't that fun, Carl? I'm telling you, man, the entire podcast is like that.

You've got to go check it out. There is some stories on there that you just can't even believe until you listen to them. And they're like those industry stories.

People, have you ever talked to Paul and heard about this story and you go, oh my gosh, if you haven't, you got to now. And everyone let us know where you're joining from. We're so grateful that you're hanging out with us today.

We'd love them to know how large this community of HVAC and refrigeration professionals is growing into. And our chat was acting kind of funky the last couple of weeks here on Restream. So hopefully I'll be able to see them.

If not, Michael's hanging out with us. He's going to pop those up. And along the way, if you have any questions, let us know.

We're going to spend a lot of time talking about the pain points in the property maintenance industry. And, you know, Paul has been here his entire career. He's going to be joining us at our national HVAC, our education conference.

We're going to have classes. We're going to have panel. We're going to have small group sessions that is going to be focused on exactly that.

Focusing on some of the pain points that property maintenance professionals encounter, especially as we're moving into all these transitions with new refrigerants and, you know, different technologies. So there's a, there's a lot of things to catch up. Oh, Carl, new to the channel.

I'm glad that you're here with us. So, oh, and tech support too. Hey, what product lines do you carry?

So we have all, most of us here in the community, you know, we've been in the field. We've been technical support specialists. We've been moral support specialists.

I mean, we've, we, we're still moral support specialists in many ways. And so we want to know, you know, where are you at? You have questions, hop in here.

Cause we're going to be talking about some of your pain points as well, as a distributor, some of the things that we're encountering in these transitions. So carrier, very cool. We were actually just talking about carrier.

So when we get into a little bit later, we're going to get into some of the equipment and we're actually going to talk about how some manufacturers have prepared for the transition a little faster than others. So this will give you an idea of, you know, what the entire industry is doing, but we're going to focus this week on property maintenance. So Paul, as I get these PowerPoints ready, you want to kind of fill everyone in on your experience in the industry and what you represent and tell us about the podcast too.

So Paul has a really fantastic podcast. You all need to check it out. I'll find that QR too.

[Paul Rhodes] (7:50 - 8:19) Sure. Thanks. I'm glad to be back and see, and I'm really looking forward to being at the HVAC educators conference in Vegas here upcoming.

My background is I started out as an apartment maintenance technician to where I began knowing how to work tools and make repairs because I held the flashlight for my dad in working on a car and working around the house.

[Clifton Beck] (8:21 - 8:22) Somebody hold this thing.

[Paul Rhodes] (8:22 - 9:26) That's exactly it. So professionally, I began doing what a lot of maintenance professionals do. You pick up the grounds, you know, deal with dog poo, you deal with the residents and what happens.

And here, 30 plus years later, I am running a maintenance learning function for Brookfield properties. And I have a side business doing training and consulting for multifamily companies. And most importantly, or probably most publicly right now is the maintenance mindset podcast, where I talk about what life is like as a maintenance technician and also provide education for both maintenance technicians and our administrative workers on site for how to make things better, more efficient and more effective.

And also stay on top of the myriad changes that are happening in the multifamily maintenance world.

[Clifton Beck] (9:27 - 11:33) Yeah, absolutely. There's so many things that are happening in this industry. That's why we do this show.

We try to stay informed and try to bring that knowledge to you firsthand so you're not questioning because even, you know, before our show, we had some things that we're going through and like, hey, I heard this. What have you heard? And we both go back and forth going, wow, I've heard something since I heard about that one that let's talk about this and see if it brings light into it.

And we'll share a little bit of it as we go through. So let's dive into some of the pain points that property maintenance are going to encounter for 2025, whether you're a technician, whether you're in training, whether you're in management, whether you're in sales, because, you know, some of these things going forward, it's important for people to understand, you know, what types of properties they have, what type of transitions they might be going through in the near future, because there are going to be some that look at their properties and look at, you know, potential budgets that they've had in place for, you know, four or five years. And then all of a sudden go, you know what, we might not be able to do this budget project as planned because of some of these transitions.

And we'll fill in some of those blanks as we go through. So let's talk a little bit about R22 systems. I know people are like, why are we talking about R22?

Well, it's very important that we talk about R22. It's a part of this entire transition, right? It's one of those pieces of the residential world that is still part of our residential world.

And when we look at R22 systems, right, R22 systems were banned out in 2020, right? That was our last production of R22. We still have a lot of equipment out there.

And there is as many as 70 million R22 systems that includes residential light commercial split systems, package systems like PTACs and window units and wall shakers and commercial refrigeration systems. A lot of racks that are still using R22 and small coolers using R22. There's a lot of stuff out there.

What about in the property maintenance sector? Do you still see a lot of R22 equipment, I would imagine?

[Paul Rhodes] (11:34 - 13:15) There is a lot of R22 equipment and there's even legacy challenges that are caused by buildings that were designed with original R22 equipment. Because those older buildings, older facilities, they still got the like eight and 10 sear equipment Right. That was installed originally, which if we all think back in our brains, that means you're dealing with a quarter inch liquid line and three, five eighths inch vapor line, right?

So those line sets are still in the wall and they're still functioning to where if you have R22 equipment that is out there, as you pointed out, and that 70 million number is unfathomable to me as just a quantity. I can't compute it until I spoke this week to a maintenance supervisor. We were talking about this transition to A2Ls and he asked me point blank.

He says, what do I do? I've got 80% of my units are still R22. Wow.

And he asked me point blank. He says, I read something last week that says the A2Ls have lower capacity. In other words, meaning they have less refrigerant in them.

Does that mean my smaller line sets will work for A2Ls? I didn't have an answer for.

[Clifton Beck] (13:15 - 16:15) Yeah. And that's a great one to talk about. We can actually dive into that.

Jason Abjute and I and Ty have been looking at some of the systems and there are instances where we have some of our A2L units that have smaller line set requirements than R410A. So in some applications that may fit the bill. Well, let's talk about some of these pain points of R22 systems so that we can kind of watch this lineage.

So we have all these R22 systems. We haven't had R22 refrigerant being manufactured for the last four and a half, almost five years now. So what were our options?

If we look at the options for R22 and I'm not going to look at them on the ease of replacement. I want to look at them on their global warming potential perspective so that people understand why we went to all of these additional refrigerants. When we were working with R22, we had really been in the phase down, I would call it pre-phase down for a couple decades.

We knew we were going to be getting rid of it, but we took forever before we finally set that trigger to pull R22 out of production. And the reason we did that was because of its ozone depleting potential. So because of that synthetic chlorine, we were phasing it out just like we did R12 and many other refrigerants that were in the CFC class.

Our HCFC refrigerants were all getting phased out and the replacement refrigerants for them, there were quite a few options to replace R22. Many of them are still in existence. And the interesting thing about that is in many of the refrigerants, the global warming potential actually went up because at the time we were focused on ozone depleting potential.

Those of us like Paul and myself, when we were in school, we never talked about global warming. We talked about a hole in the ozone though. That's right.

Right. Remember those conversations? And so that's what we did.

We phased out R22 and we had a variety of different replacements for that. And based on their global warming potential, here's the primary ones. A lot of people are familiar with things like MO99, which is R438A.

New 22, which is R422B. There's a variety of them in there. And if you look at them, they're all 400 series refrigerants, which means they're all soup kitchens.

They're all blends of different refrigerants, right? R22, single component refrigerant. Everything in the 400 series, all sorts of refrigerants blended together.

Many of them had glide, had the potential for fractionation. Jug had to be inverted to be able to introduce it into a system, but we had some options. Okay.

So there's refrigerants out there working for, hey, Todd, what's going on, my friend? So there's refrigerants that we have that we can utilize in R22 systems. So in the multifamily, what are the most popular?

What are the most common refrigerants that you see for a replacement of R22?

[Paul Rhodes] (16:16 - 17:15) The most common for us basically boiled down to three of them. And in my experience, the decision factor actually wasn't a decision based on application. In other words, we don't choose M099 or R438A because it's the best refrigerant for the system.

We choose it because that's the one we know we're going to be able to get the supply. Our supplier that we have a purchasing agreement with, they carry the deal on M099. So that's the one we go with.

We won't run out. We won't have to deal with supply issues. Absolutely.

So, and M099 was one of the most common refrigerants that we used. Right. The other one, and we're still using it now.

The other two were new 22. And then in the Southeast due to supplier demand, it was 421, that choice refrigerant.

[Clifton Beck] (17:15 - 19:48) Yep, absolutely. Yeah. And so when we look at those GWP replacements, those were very common.

Yeah, 421 had a high GWP to it, but it's a good refrigerant as well. We had things like TDX20. That was a blue on project that I worked with for a while, fairly low GWP, all of them different blends.

Now, the thing that we have to be aware of, as we moved past this HCFC phase out, we moved into a thing called the HFC phase down. Okay. It's going to be very important when we think about some of these refrigerants, because some of these refrigerants actually have HFCs in them as well, right.

Which are going to be part of this phase down process. So we got our 22, whole bunch of them still out there, variety of replacement refrigerants being selected based on availability, sometimes based on cost as well. So it depends on the project, the quantities that we have, what people are most comfortable with.

So we have our R22 generation of refrigerants, still a pain point, but still has refrigerant options. So as we began this HFC phase down, it actually started in 2022. So all HFC refrigerants, including R410A and many others that we're comfortable with, began a phase down due to two different things.

An exact same phase down schedule that came from the Kigali Amendment that is also in the American Innovation Manufacturing Act. So what does that mean for us now? Right?

So we've got, hey Kendrick, what's going on? Glad to have you here with us. Paul Leonardo out there.

Hey, yeah, I see that you're having some audio issues. Paul, hopefully that straightens up for you. I had some internet glitches a while ago from the snow we're getting here in the Midwest.

So hopefully it's nothing coming from my end. All right. So R22 systems going away.

R410A systems move into play. Oh, we've got some motion going on in here. Hold on just a second.

I'll be right back here in just a second. All right. So as we are getting rid of the R22 systems altogether, we're introducing R410A systems into the mix and we started getting comfortable with them.

But then now we've got a blend of R410A and R22 systems. So in a lot of your properties, are you seeing both systems then?

[Paul Rhodes] (19:49 - 23:20) Yes, we are seeing both systems and that does lead to a lot of on the ground confusion to where we end up having to deal with just the changes from an R22 HCFC system to R410A system. And the biggest issue there at our level was that change in pressure. And if we think back to how that transition happened, there was a huge amount of panic within the multifamily industry about that change in pressure and dealing with that change in pressure.

And hindsight is 20-20 and really it's no big deal as long as you're using the correct tool. But it did identify a large training gap for us as an industry to where we had maintenance technicians that were trained in the field by shortcut WAG training. Right.

With R22 and mineral oil. Yes, it did. And WAG for those in the audience that are not familiar with that popular acronym, it means wild assumed guess.

And when we went to R410A, we suddenly had to go from WAG to SWAG. We had to add some science in there. But at that point, it identified a huge, as I said, learning gap to where even today, I still get maintenance technicians that are working on older properties and have been there for a long period of time.

And they're asking me, what is the new 70 that I need to charge the low side gauge, that I need to add refrigerant until it gets there? And for those of you who remember working with R22, generally speaking, it is forgiving. And I know a lot of maintenance technicians that were taught, you add refrigerant until the pressure gauge shows 70 PSI, and then you're done.

So when we went to 410A, because of that pressure change, a lot of the maintenance guys were asking, well, what's the new 70? Because 70 is too low. And you're right, Paul, R22, that was great.

It was awesome. You could take a WAG at it and a lot of times it would end up working. 410A, and when we got the higher SEER ratings, it required a greater technical skill level and a greater knowledge of that theory that's behind it.

And that information is still a challenge to get to our workers out in the field. And there is a panic. Yesterday, I talked with a maintenance technician, and I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit.

This is great. But I talked with the maintenance technician and I said, are you ready? Do you have questions about what is going to happen in January?

And he said, yeah, propane's coming. And I stopped and I said, stop right there. No, no.

Yes, propane is a refrigerant. We're not using it. It's not here.

It doesn't exist. Propane is for your gas grill to put your steak on at the end of the week when you're ready.

[Clifton Beck] (23:21 - 23:25) That's right. Either one of these two new refrigerants that we're going to see either.

[Paul Rhodes] (23:25 - 23:59) No, not at all. Not at all. But the fact that that was the first thing out of his mouth identifies again, we have a learning gap.

We have a large learning gap, maybe not at the educational level because of the great information that you and other educators are putting out there, other schools and podcasts. There's a huge amount of information available. And yet our maintenance technicians in the field, that message is still not reaching.

[Clifton Beck] (24:00 - 24:10) No, you're 100%. We get that all the time from all sectors, residential, light, commercial, industrial. Carl says you got some swag.

I'm telling you, Carl, you can go back and check out that podcast, man. You're going to have to.

[Paul Rhodes] (24:10 - 24:12) I'm working on it. I'm working on it, man.

[Clifton Beck] (24:12 - 27:41) That's right. So we get the same kind of calls. We get the same kind of issues from the industry, from every aspect of the industry.

And that's why we wanted to make sure we're covering everyone, that we're empowering every technician at every level to understand these changes. So we have this transition. And remember, when we're talking about the forgiveness of R22, that's back in the days where the beer can cold philosophies came from because things were forgiving and many technicians grew up with that.

That's what they were taught. And unfortunately, it kind of phased away and you're right. Many of us didn't get the proper education until later into the transitions.

Hopefully by now, people are starting to understand superheat and sub-cool a lot more than they used to and understand the effects of those. But here's some of the things that we're going to see going forward. Remember, when we change those refrigerants, when we started making that transition in equipment, so we were now introducing R410A systems into the buildings.

We're working with a bunch of existing R22 systems. Now we have all these different refrigerants that are going to be going into these R22 systems as we're taking out R22. This means we have new recovery tanks.

We've got new processes, procedures that we're going to work with. R410A seems to be here for a long time. It's the eco-friendly refrigerant, even though its global warming potential was higher than that of R22.

We started getting comfortable with R410A. R410A is now being phased down. It will be phased down by 85% by 2036.

So a little over a decade, we will not see any R410A in all of the HFC classes. So what are the replacements for R410A? Here's where it gets tricky.

And this is going to be an incredibly important thing for all maintenance technicians, and especially our property maintenance technicians that are working with both 22 and R410A systems. Hey, fantastic, Jose. I'm glad that you're joining us here today.

You are who we are here for, my friend, right? These are the conversations that we're having exactly for you so that we can understand this. Because this right here, think about this.

We had all these R22 replacements ready to go. We had some of these before we even made the transition into R410A. R410A is a different animal.

There currently is no SNAP-approved replacement refrigerant for R410A. There is at least one refrigerant that I have seen out there that has been submitted to the EPA, but has actually not been approved yet by the EPA that can be verified. It's not on the SNAP approval list.

I've called the manufacturer and have not gotten a certificate of approval from them yet. So we're going to be anxious to see what that looks like. If it does get approved as a replacement, currently is not, but then we're still in those 400 series refrigerants that has a very significant glide of blended refrigerants, right?

So currently, we don't have a replacement for R410A. And so let's think about what's going to happen with R410A, Paul. I mean, you've been in many of these conversations.

[Paul Rhodes] (27:42 - 31:18) It's going to diminish to where I think it's an important point to reiterate just what you were talking about there, that there is no approved R410A replacement. And the reason why I want to reiterate that is last week, I attended a training from a supplier, national supplier, that said repeatedly that there is a replacement. They went on to use the same terminology that we used in that R22 retrofit to where this is a drop-in, which, hate that term, but it's still, it's marketed and used in there.

We had the drop-in replacements for R22. Yes, that happened. Technicians are looking for a drop-in replacement.

And again, with the quotes, replacement for R410A. And it's not there. It's not here.

There is no there there. And this national supplier said multiple times that it exists. It's in place.

And while, yes, that a drop-in replacement based on the price of R410A is lower than this replacement right now, it's not even in consideration for our strategy plans for 2025 and probably into 2026. But the reason why I'm highlighting it is the consistency of information challenge that we have to where I still have maintenance technicians when I go to talk about or teach refrigerant that I stand up and say the line that everybody says that we've parroted and said is you do not top off R22 with a retrofit refrigerant, with a drop-in. And yet maintenance guys and those in the field turn around and say, but it works.

I don't care if it works. It's wrong. You don't do it.

You shorten the life of your equipment. You get to play chemist. Whatever it is, you're creating a new refrigerant that no longer matches any superheater sub-cooled tables.

And the benefit you're trying to get of the speed with which you make that repair and you sign off on that work order, you have drastically shortened the life of your equipment, which you've destroyed any timing that you're set. So what I'm trying to point out here is that we as a industry, technicians, and I'm so glad to see Jose. I've met him.

And if it's the Jose that I'm thinking of, I'm glad to see him. We as technicians have got to be paying attention to what's going on, because especially in our Southern states, air conditioning is, if not the, it is within the top five work orders, service requests that our residents give us, which means this, from a technician standpoint, making good air conditioning repairs is the best job security that we have.

[Clifton Beck] (31:18 - 31:19) Absolutely it is.

[Paul Rhodes] (31:19 - 32:44) But notice that good air conditioning repairs and things like the retrofit and using different refrigerants. And even what Froggy Beluga brings up in the comments of a proper vacuum, as an industry, we typically don't use micron gauges. And it's, that boggles my mind because the level of accuracy that we need to have, especially with the hygroscopic properties of the oils that all these new refrigerants that we need to use, we've got to have a micron gauge.

Absolutely you do. And use the vacuum properly, use the ballast valve and all of those things. So it comes down to, if you're listening and you're a technician, ask questions.

Absolutely. Follow manufacturer procedures and pay attention to the large amount of public information that's available, especially from sources like ESCO, HVAC Excellence. These are absolutely critical for us to continue to maintain that job security that we have.

[Clifton Beck] (32:44 - 36:15) No, a hundred percent. That's why we're having these conversations to help everyone be prepared, ask these questions. Froggy Beluga, I'm so glad that you answered that question because it kind of, it relates into our new refrigerants.

And so I want to bring that up real quick, just so that people see what we're talking about that's happening in the chat in case it doesn't show on your side. So we have multiple social media platforms coming through here. So what we're talking about is the transition, which we haven't quite gotten there.

And I actually don't know that I prepared slides for the pain points of this because we've been talking about it so much. We have a lot of details on what that process and procedure is going to look like because there is a new, and I'm not going to call it a pain point. I'm going to call it a new requirement in our new equipment.

Now remember, we have two new refrigerants coming into play. R32, which was half of R410A to begin with, and R454B, which is a blend of R32 and R1234YF going into new systems currently being manufactured. So we'll talk about that in a minute too, as some of the manufacturers haven't quite changed their lines over.

Some are completely done with that. What you will see if you're going to be installing some of these new A2L systems, you will actually see a sticker on the outside unit that has a required evacuation level that you have to print on there. So you're actually taking ownership that a proper evacuation was done on that system and what evacuation level was maintained.

So you're going to see a sticker on these and a new procedure that you have not seen before. You're going to have test pressure check off and you're going to have evacuation check off and additional refrigerant added into the system, all on the piece of equipment at installation. So that does add some additional pain points for us.

So we've got R22 pain points in multifamily, R410A pain points in multifamily that are still going to be an issue going forward. Unfortunately, many of the conversations that we at ESCO have had with the EPA are showing that there is currently not adequate replacement refrigerants for R410A. We only work with four refrigerant chemicals.

Remember, if we look back at that periodic table, which we have plenty of resources on this, anyone that is needing this for training, for their own personal education, this entire time we've been manufacturing synthetic refrigerants since the 1920s. They had hydrogen, carbon, fluorine, and chlorine. And it's just different combinations of those.

So we can only make so many combinations. And every time we have a 400 series refrigerant, we're just taking different combinations and we're blending them together. So we don't have a lot of options.

We're running out of options in the refrigerant sector. So chances of having a drop in R410A are not looking good. So then we have to look at, okay, what's our options?

Because as we start replacing equipment, we're not going to have R410A equipment in reserves. They're going away. We have an additional 12 month of sell through.

So next year we have a sell through of equipment, but that's it. And so now we're going to have properties that are going to have R22, R410A, potentially R32, and R454B, because it depends on the manufacturer. We didn't even come to a general consensus on one refrigerant for residential and light commercial systems.

So depending on the manufacturer, you can see both.

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[Clifton Beck] (36:49 - 37:08) And many of our, if not most of our A2L systems are going to require mitigation controls, which really gets into a pain point when we look at multifamily, because our codes could be different across the country.

[Paul Rhodes] (37:10 - 40:38) And it is this mitigation issue that actually exposes a larger business issue that we end up having to where our budgets, we typically operate at the property level and at the management company level on an annualized budgetary process to where at the end of every year, which we are, you know, this multifamily, the joke is we've got five seasons, winter, spring, summer, fall, and budget. So that's it. But the challenge is that the only information that we're getting from suppliers and justifiably so, no, this is not a blame game.

It's just identifying. The only information from a budgetary standpoint we're getting for next year is a percentage year over year increase in price. I've heard anything from eight to 15% price increase that we're dealing with.

Okay. That's normal. But because of the mitigation issue currently in a straight cool split system, when we're dealing with our 410A, if that outside condensing unit goes down, we can acceptably only replace the outside unit.

We don't have to touch the indoor coil. Sure. Because of this mitigation system and the requirements of A2L, if you have to replace the outside condensing unit and there is no R410A condensing units left, which to your point, we've got 12 months of sell through that we can do.

We no longer are able to do an apples to apples replacement. Meaning we bring in the new A2L system, but we're not only able to replace the outside unit, we must replace the inside unit. And that cost increase, both labor and parts, is not included in that eight to 15% price increase.

And right now, just because of that information that is not present, we're going, we're expecting to run into challenges. So the management companies that I've talked to and discussed, they're kind of hitting it with a slow roll, increase in training. We're really going to lean into our suppliers to be sure that we have and can keep our R410A equipment operating as long as possible to mitigate some of that budget sticker shock that's going to happen.

And that means we're going to get back to doing like what we did when we went from 22 to 410 and replace more compressors. Compressor change outs and coil change outs, absolutely. All of those things, which I'm in favor of.

That is a sensible solution to do because those mitigation systems, not only are they physical equipment, but they're going to require a technology change for our technicians in the field. Training, sure.

[Clifton Beck] (40:38 - 43:09) Yes. I've got us one here so that everyone can take a look if you're not familiar. So this is, we did a video on this a while back of what the mitigation strategies look like, but Johnstone Supply came out with a really cool little layout, very simple.

I like this just to show you what we're talking about. Traditionally, as Paul was saying on that outdoor unit, if I had an R410A compressor go bad, I'm probably just replacing the whole thing. Probably not replacing a compressor just for cost difference.

Depends on the age of it. So if I'm going to replace a unit, no big deal because my indoor coil is already a match to it. Off I go.

As we move into A2L equipment, we're now going to have factory installed leak detection sensors on the coil, or we're going to have a kit for that sensor. Most of them have already transitioned into installing that sensor from the factory, but we're going to have a little lag time by a few of the manufacturers as they make this transition, and they will send it as a kit. And so the questions come in, well, why are we sending a kit?

Is it a different coil? Not necessarily. Remember earlier when we talked about that transition from R22 to R410A, Paul, what was the biggest concern when we made that transition?

The pressures. Which there was a significant difference in pressures. When we move from R410A into R32 and R454B, we're only going up or down a few PSI, depending on which refrigerant.

So it's not significant. So from a manufacturing perspective, an R410A coil is really equivalent to an R32 coil and an R454B coil. The only difference is the R410A being an A1 didn't require any type of mitigation, and the R32 and the R454B will.

And they may have the same metering device because they're operating in approximately the same pressures. But now we have a sensor on the coil. So the cased coil for a gas AC application or a factory installed on an air handler that is going to be tied into a mitigation board.

So a separate component that is an intermediate connection between the thermostat and the indoor unit that will eventually be incorporated into all indoor boards. But you're right. It's a cost for every manufacturer that has to get moved down the line.

There's no federal subsidiaries that are paying for that. So it's going to be moved down the line in, I anticipate, in addition to our annual product price increases.

[Paul Rhodes] (43:10 - 43:32) Yeah, and it is a challenge in our maintenance technicians and our maintenance associates. Generally speaking, we're doing a lot of L and K repairs, like and kind repairs. I take off this part and I put another part in place exactly the same way that the old part came off.

[Clifton Beck] (43:32 - 43:32) You bet.

[Paul Rhodes] (43:32 - 43:53) But when we're adding mitigation boards, that adds a level of complexity that has to be trained. And that training can't only be for our maintenance associates. We're going to have to figure out, and we haven't even addressed it yet, we're going to have to figure out for our residents.

[Clifton Beck] (43:53 - 43:53) You bet.

[Paul Rhodes] (43:54 - 45:28) Because if that mitigation board, and for anybody watching, if you haven't seen the video that Clifton did on these mitigation systems, it's fantastic. But in there, if this board detects, it's going to lock out everything except the indoor fan to dilute the air. And that's going to run for a period of time until it no longer detects.

And then a period of time to be sure it circulates and then shut it down and circulate back on. In other words, there's going to be a period of time that our residents, if they put their hands up and feel air coming out the vent, it's not cool. It's broken.

Maintenance, come fix it now. It's the end of the world. For the resident, that is.

When we get there, depending on timing, when we get there, there's no problem. That's exactly right. So we're going to have to learn up our customer service skills of a good way to explain this issue to our residents of, no, Mr. or Mrs. Resident, you're not going crazy. It was broken intentionally, but now it works just fine. And we need to train that communication to our residents. Plus, what are our standards going to be on how we clear that work order?

Do we, what do we do? What are those processes? I don't have an answer at this point because we're not there yet.

[Clifton Beck] (45:28 - 46:45) Right. It's new. It's going to involve time because now we're in a state of searching for a refrigerant leak and verifying if it was a refrigerant that set this off, which hopefully it will.

We're going to be diving a lot more into what that looks like going forward with the refrigerant detection sensors and how well they pick up. If there's any other chemicals that could potentially interfere with that as well, because there's still a lot of unknowns in all of our industries, unfortunately, that are going to take a little bit of time. And so when we start thinking about that from a management perspective, I may have to refactor how much time I allot for service calls now on some of these jobs, because I may now have added additional time.

Because when we think about, like I said, just the control aspect alone, if we looked at a residential technician, and I'm just going to generalize, this is my own personal observations. I don't have any statistics to validate this. But from my own personal observations, a majority of residential HVAC technicians would be very uncomfortable if they had to tie in a zone control board in between an existing thermostat in the indoor unit.

I would agree with that.

[Paul Rhodes] (46:46 - 46:51) I think that is an accurate swag diagnosis.

[Clifton Beck] (46:51 - 50:06) Yeah, they've just not been introduced to it enough times to be comfortable. And so I would say that a majority of technicians would be uncomfortable with that process of disconnecting the thermostat and adding a new control in and making sure that it's all connected properly and tested before they leave, which is what we will have to do with this new system. So we're absolutely going to be adding additional time if we're replacing a system, because now we have more controls.

But now we have an entire layer of training that technicians are going to have to get comfortable with in a hurry, because we are already starting to see the equipment hitting the ground. Yeah, a lot going on right here. Jose, a concern for multifamily, right?

So there are a lot of R22s, a lot of R410A, and we're going to be introducing all these new R32 and R454B systems into the mix. So let's kind of talk a little bit about what tools are going to look like for technicians. Boy, that is a horrible picture I threw in there.

Let me make that one smaller so it's not so nasty. I'm borrowing that from our training partners field piece, just talking about products and tools that are A2L compatible. Remember, we're moving from a class A1 refrigerant into a class A2L that has some mildly flammable characteristics.

And there are some requirements for tools. Now, many of the tools that we are already using in the industry are compatible with A2L refrigerants. Even if they hadn't been previously tested for that, the industry is relooking at them, all the manufacturers going, okay, yeah, this was already good.

My little Testo smart probes that I adore that I've had forever, I think they're like nine years old now, all I had to do is update the firmware and my little smart probes are off and running, right? Had the new R32 and R454B as well as all the other additional A2L refrigerants in it. The older vacuum pump that had a permanent split capacitor that in the dark you could see spark every time it started up because it had a start switch on it is not acceptable for A2L refrigerants.

So there are some tools we're gonna have to pay attention into to see if we need to. So we now have the potential for having to replace some of our tools to work with these new generations of refrigerants. So I encourage, I don't wanna spend too much time on there.

We've done some really good videos on what is required, the difference between compatible and certified and you really ought to spend some time just checking with it. Go to your local manufacturer and look at the tools. There's a lot of good resources on that but it adds another pain factor for us as technicians and property maintenance.

So Paul, in general, I know like we talk about residential, typically a residential service van will supply some of the major tools like a recovery unit, a vacuum pump and maybe some scales. In the multifamily property, what does that typically look like?

[Paul Rhodes] (50:07 - 52:18) Generally speaking, you're right. All the hand tool type things fall to the responsibility of the individual technician to bring with them to the job. So we're talking there about gauges.

To your point, I use the FieldPiece S-Man 454 and there it was just a firmware update but I also use JB analog gauges and those went to the website and zero problem on there. And that I think is the prescription really for all of this is technicians and properties, managers, regionals who are there, have your technicians go to the individual manufacturer of their tools website. So all the hand tools end up being the responsibility of the technicians.

And to your point, the hand tools with minor upgrades, the majority of those I've seen are perfectly acceptable. Verify in each individual case. When you start getting into the property tools which typically that falls to the vacuum pump, the micron gauge if they have one and the recovery machine and of course the hoses that go in between them.

Those three items will need to be verified. Somebody at the property, if I ruled the world, the maintenance supervisor would do that for each community and be certain that their vacuum doesn't have the spark on it. We used to call that a nightlight.

And that's right. But the key takeaway is verify it. Don't just assume you're gonna be good, do the right thing.

Have it. And if it needs to be upgraded, start now with a plan because we do have a little bit of grace period at the beginning before a lot of these A2L systems will start hitting our properties. They will be coming.

But we have a little bit of grace period that we can figure that out.

[Clifton Beck] (52:19 - 54:46) Yeah. We've got some prep time. Actually, that's one of the, I think that's the next, well, we kind of talked about this earlier when we were looking at equipment pricing and budgeting, right?

Many times where we've already looked at our budgets for the next year, they're already solid. Now we have these things to introduce. So it kind of rolls into this conversation that we encourage you to look at your equipment because if you're operating with 20 year old vacuum pumps for every technician and you've got a hundred vacuum pumps, that might not be in your 2025 budget to start replacing vacuum pumps.

So now's the time to start looking at that and looking at the department, understanding what things are compatible, what things are not and preparing. Believe me, you hop on Facebook marketplace right now, you can buy old PSE driven vacuum pumps for almost nothing because people are already starting to replace them with modern. And then we're really looking at DC driven vacuum pumps and recovery units.

That's really the factor that we see the most going into the A2L compatible equipment. And you're right. It's very much about training, staying up to date with what is happening in the industry.

I highly recommend people learning about A2L refrigerants. We've done a lot of the shows about the A2L refrigerants. We have a myriad of training for you to get to know things better.

We've got the blog spot that Howard put together that is just a conglomerate of every kind of information that you need. And if you're looking for training courses and training certification, whether you're an instructor, whether you're a manager, whether you are a technician, we have all of that ready to go for you as well. So if you have any questions on low GWP training, just give us a call at the office.

We love hearing from you. We love making sure that you have all of the resources that you need. And hop on that Maintenance Mindset podcast where we're diving into these topics, things that you're encountering regularly and getting you prepared for what these transitions look like.

Because it's going to be an interesting couple of years, I do believe.

[Paul Rhodes] (54:46 - 55:11) I really like the word choice you selected there. Interesting. I would even say enthusiastic couple of years.

Opportunity. It really and truly is. I do believe over the next couple of years, we're going to look back in the same way that we look back at the pressure change between 22 and 410A and say, you know what, that was no big deal.

[Clifton Beck] (55:12 - 55:12) Right.

[Paul Rhodes] (55:12 - 55:39) Right now, we are a high stress moment. A change is coming, a transition coming. This is all happening.

I firmly believe two years from now, we're going to be able to look back the same way and say, you know what, this thing going from A1 to A2L, not that big a deal. At least that is my optimistic outlook. My positive prescription right there.

If I'm talking to my future self, that's what I'm saying.

[Clifton Beck] (55:42 - 56:24) I completely agree with that. We talk about our talent. We talk about the technicians that we have.

We talk about getting people trained. I also think it's very important for us to talk about how much fun this industry actually is. How rewarding the career working in property maintenance in HVAC.

It's been wonderful for me. I know it's been wonderful for you. We all struggle with recruiting into the trades.

I want people to be able to understand some of the benefits and the opportunities that we have, especially in multifamily, Paul. I know you're very passionate about this.

[Paul Rhodes] (56:26 - 1:00:34) Multifamily, I continue to say it, shout it, yell from the rooftops. Being a multifamily maintenance technician is the greatest job in the world. It is providing a customer service.

It is dealing directly with both engineered equipment, technology, really cool stuff that does amazing things, as well as the people that you are serving and getting it to. Those two things marry together to make a fantastic career. Some of the benefits are it is year-round work.

The majority of time you are inside and there is almost no selling involved to where I've got friends that are contractors and they enjoy working on an HVAC or a plumbing truck, but they don't like the selling piece of it. Well, we don't sell. My tagline is, look, I'm a maintenance guy.

I don't handle money. I just, something's broken. I show up, I fix it.

I say, thank you for letting me continue to serve and I head to the next department. It is year-round constant work that, yes, in the summer, we get busier. In the winter, we get a little bit less busy, but it's not as feast or famine as my understanding of a typical contractor business is.

And the great thing is, you can get to be someone like myself with dedication and hard work. You start in the apartment industry at ground zero with no skill level whatsoever. And if you have initiative and drive, you can become whatever direction you want.

The apartment industry is three in, pre-COVID was the last numbers I saw. The apartment industry was a $3 trillion business, a massive part of our national economy. And it's kind of this hidden wonder that is amazing as a career choice.

Yes, I'm familiar with people that started out as onsite maintenance technician and they went on to become owners of companies, owners of buildings. We even have some that start out in the office being a manager or sales and decide that they wanna do something that is much more tactile with their hands. And they join maintenance.

The running line, which is also how I got into it, is you fall in to a role in multifamily maintenance. But when you fall in, it's such a good place to be that you don't climb out. It is a full-time job with really good benefits that continues to get better.

And I love being an apartment maintenance technician. And even though I hung up my onsite gauges a while back, I am thrilled every time I get the opportunity to go spend a day onsite and go be a maintenance technician anymore. There is just a fulfillment of showing up when it's somebody's worst day, pipe broke, air conditioner, it's hot and ridiculous.

And I get to show up and in effect, open up my shirt, have the red S right there, be the superhero. I solve the issue and the resident gets to go back to their lives and I get to go on and be a superhero somewhere else. It is just the absolute best career in the world.

[Clifton Beck] (1:00:35 - 1:02:41) That's a great perspective. Hadn't really thought about that much from the wholesales because we do have a lot of technicians that love the trade and are being pressured by private equity companies that have been sponging up a lot of our mom and pop contractors around the country. And for better or for worse, the companies are struggling to keep technicians and many of them have the same complaints that they want to fix, they don't want to sell.

And that's a great opportunity for those technicians to rethink about their careers and go, you know what? I love doing what I was doing. I want to do more of that.

Here's the opportunity and meet some wonderful people along the way. Some of the best conversations I've ever had in my life was my property, multifamily property times. There's so many, we have some really good conversations that I want everyone to go listen to that podcast.

I mean, it gets pretty deep. We can't share all those stories on here, but we can share them on the podcast. You're welcome to go check all those out.

Oh man, so much fun. Paul, I'm so grateful you joined us today. Let's tell people ways that they can connect with you.

Check out directionalmaintenance.com when you get a chance and you will be at the National HVACR Education Conference. That is going to be a fantastic time this year. I encourage all of you to check that out.

You want to sit down and hang out with Paul, learn some, have some good story time, learn some great things about the industry and spend some time on classes and training paths that are catered for multifamily. We really want you to be there. Tony, thank you for joining us, sir.

We're so grateful the way that you've been serving our country too, my friend. I'm grateful to have you. So yeah, great, great stuff here.

Anyone have any final questions? Paul, you have any short stories, anything you want to share while we're waiting for any questions to come through?

[Paul Rhodes] (1:02:42 - 1:04:20) Uh, probably the story I would share this time was I got a call from a resident that was complaining that their steamer was broken. In the apartment, their steamer was broken. So I looked at the work order and I said, steamer, what do you mean?

We don't have steamers. So I went to the resident's apartment. I get to the apartment and the gentleman that answered the phone, he didn't speak very good English.

I found out. And so we walked into the kitchen and I walked over to the stove thinking, you know, the old infomercial of buy this set of knives and you get a bamboo steamer. So that's what I was thinking.

And he pointed, he says, no, no, not stove, steamer. And he pointed at the dishwasher. So I went over to the dishwasher and opened it up and it was full of scraps of aluminum foil.

And they had gotten down in the sump and had clogged and jammed up the sump. So the pump wasn't working anymore. And I looked at him and I said, this is a dishwasher.

He says, no, no, steamer. And he opened up the refrigerator and there was two fish wrapped in aluminum foil with lemons in them and everything. And he'd been putting them on the top rack of the dishwasher.

And I put them on hot and steam away. Actually, no, he clarified. He says, one fish, normal wash, two fish, heavy duty.

[Clifton Beck] (1:04:20 - 1:04:24) Oh my gosh. I love that.

[Paul Rhodes] (1:04:28 - 1:04:38) So yes, multifamily industry, not only is it a great career, it's awesome training for a potential stand-up comedian job.

[Clifton Beck] (1:04:39 - 1:04:57) Not all the comedians you would ever want if you get right on it. Paul Rhodes, my friend, I absolutely love hanging out with you. I'm so glad we've had a chance to get to know each other this year.

I really look forward to hanging out at the conference. And thank you so much for your time today.

[Paul Rhodes] (1:04:58 - 1:05:06) I agree with you. Thanks again for the invite, Clifton. It's always a pleasure to speak with you, even though I can't get words out anymore.

[Clifton Beck] (1:05:06 - 1:05:07) It's how much fun we have, words.

[Paul Rhodes] (1:05:08 - 1:05:09) It's been a long week.

[Clifton Beck] (1:05:12 - 1:05:23) Well, everyone, thank you so much for joining us once again on Did You Know the ESCO HVAC Show. And we look forward to seeing you again next week. Bye, everybody.

We'll see you.

[Paul Rhodes] (1:05:23 - 1:06:28) Thank you again to AppWork for sponsoring today's episode. Imagine carrying a digital make-ready board in your pocket with work order tracking and maintenance technician leaderboards designed to gamify the process and bring out your team's competitive best. AppWork offers solutions to headaches that have plagued the multifamily industry for decades.

Visit www.appworkco.com today. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Maintenance Mindset. I hope you take away ideas that apply to your current and future career goals.

Please check out Maintenance Mindset Minute to hear short-form, high-impact, applicable, maintenance-centered information. Whatever you do today, do it with a maintenance mindset. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe.

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