Facility Management Insights

[Paul Rhodes] (0:02 - 1:41) I have the honor of this episode of being joined by Chris Caramanica, Director of Facilities with WinnCompanies. In addition to us having some laughs, we get to talk about ways to manage inventory in your shop, ideas of developing a teamwork culture between your maintenance and office teams. We even talk a little bit about Chris's history and why he has an autopsy sign in his office.

We won't even mention how he has answers for fair housing classes. All of this and more right after a word from our sponsor. Appwork is one of the founding sponsors here at the Multifamily Media Network.

Much more than maintenance, Appwork is advanced business intelligence. Streamline maintenance workflows and keep an eye on the leaderboard as your service teams enjoy the gamification of maintenance. Visit appworkco.com and transform your productivity today. Welcome everybody again. I am joined today by a very good friend of mine, Chris Caramanica. And yes, for those asking, that is how you say his last name.

Because every time we've had the opportunity to stand on stage, you go through the introductions and they get to Chris and there's that pause, that slight pause of how many syllables is this supposed to have? Chris, welcome. I'm very, very honored that you are here.

My very first guest.

[Chris Caramanica] (1:42 - 2:00) I'm so happy to be here. You and I have so much fun when the cameras aren't on and we're not being recorded. I can only imagine how much fun we're going to have today.

So the listeners are in for a real treat, I think. Or this will never see the light of day. We'll decide at the end.

[Paul Rhodes] (2:00 - 2:25) Very positive. Yeah, I like that. Either a treat or an apology.

One or the other. There's much in the middle there. Well, for the two people who attend Apartmentalize and don't know who you are, or the people who are not involved in Association World and are not familiar with you, who are you?

[Chris Caramanica] (2:26 - 2:35) Oh, that's a question I ask myself almost every single day. So thanks for asking. Do you want to type that into AI real quick and get an answer?

[Paul Rhodes] (2:35 - 2:35) We will.

[Chris Caramanica] (2:35 - 5:47) We'll listen, buddy. We'll get into AI. Don't worry, there'll be time.

No, so my name is Chris Caramanica. I'm a Director of Facilities for WinnCompanies. We're one of the largest affordable housing owners and developers and managers in the U.S. I oversee about almost 100 properties in four states. I've been in the multifamily industry for 15 years, and before that I was in commercial facilities in New York City. I'm actually born and raised right outside New York City, currently live in the Jersey Shore area, not the bad part of the Jersey Shore. I like to say I'm on the good part of the Jersey Shore.

You're not tan enough to be in the bad part of Jersey Shore. Yeah, and as you mentioned, Paul, like five years ago I met this guy by the name of, what was it, Paul Rhodes. I met this guy, Paul Rhodes, who trained, was the national trainer for NAA and delivered CAM-T training for a program that I had set up in New York.

Paul, you know about this quite well. And Paul and I spent probably six weeks together. Yep.

Five years ago, it was actually, I checked my calendar, five years ago this week we were... Was it this week? I knew it was about this, wow.

And, you know, you know, but I'm telling the audience, you know, I spoke quite a bit about the association. I had zero involvement. And, you know, from there I was really interested in learning a little bit more about our industry, things outside of my organization.

And, yeah, it just, it snowballed from there. You know, I went to advanced facilitator training. I, you know, I completed my CAM-T successfully, passed the test.

Went on to get some other credentials. What was that? In spite of your instructor.

Yes, in spite of my instructor. So, yeah, I just started to get involved however I could. I was volunteering, I was in leadership lyceum in the class of 2020.

And I strongly recommend, you know, leadership lyceum classes, whether at the national level or your affiliate level. You know, it was really good for me to learn more about our industry than what my world was. And then from there I just got to know and network with people.

And, you know, started presenting at Apartmentalize I think in 2020 during COVID. I did a Zoom. And, yeah, my, I think we put it, my dance card is always full at Apartmentalize.

And I really enjoy speaking about our industry, speaking about maintenance, speaking to new people and new audiences. So that's kind of, that's kind of me in a nutshell. But it really started that, you know, when you invited me today, it was a no brainer.

Because, you know, five years ago you sat and just listened to me over and over and over again. And as I just picked your brain for six weeks and you still let me pick your brain five years later. So.

[Paul Rhodes] (5:48 - 5:57) Gladly, I mean, I'm not using it. So maybe somebody, I'm just glad somebody else can make use of it. I didn't leave any for you to use after I picked it so much.

[Chris Caramanica] (5:58 - 5:59) This is my friend.

[Paul Rhodes] (6:00 - 6:55) But it is that, that is amazing to me. I mean, I knew it was five years ago. So we're talking BC, you know, before COVID, before World War germ shut down and forced us to live like this of talking back and forth online and through video calls and that.

So it's almost a different world, business environment, business culture of how we were performing maintenance. And I remember that very fondly. We were in the, in the basement, the training room of that building right next to Hell's Kitchen, right off of Hell's Kitchen there in New York.

In the heart of Times Square. Yes, that's exactly right. And I remember us, we were cleaning up one day and you asked me, how do I get started in this?

[Chris Caramanica] (6:56 - 6:56) Yeah.

[Paul Rhodes] (6:56 - 8:28) And I, after the time we had spent together with all of those multiples of classes, the fact that you were earnestly and interested to how do I start doing what you're doing? And I think back now that my oversimplistic answer and you took it to the furthest extreme, but it's still my answer of just say yes. You, you, you, you, you know, and this for anybody in the audience who is interested in doing something, first of all, get interested in doing something.

Pick a something. I mean, apparently you're interested in doing autopsies based on what's on your wall back there, but we can talk about that here in a minute. But, but first of all, have a direction that you're going in and then second, set yourself up for being in that direction.

And I firmly believe in the universe or the world or God or whatever your particular philosophy is, those opportunities are going to come your way. And then here's my oversimplified answer to you was just say yes and, and figure it out. And you've taken that to an amazing extreme.

[Chris Caramanica] (8:29 - 10:20) Yeah. I'm often told I say yes too much, which is, which is the curse of the just saying yes. But, you know, to your point, Paul, and this is what I tell people all the time, you know, and it doesn't have to just be work related.

It can be, you know, just in your personal life, just say yes. Give you a recent example. We were, I have a fear of heights.

Yes, I work in the apartment industry. I'm on roofs all the time. I'm on high ladders, you know, and my wife had this desire to do indoor skydiving, right?

She wanted to do the, you know, you know, put on the suit, get thrown in with fans going a hundred miles an hour and just hover. And I was like, wow, that sounds like a great idea. Why don't you and our daughter do that for Mother's Day?

And I will sit and I'll take photos and I'll enjoy it. Right? So that's what we did our last Mother's Day.

But what she didn't know is that I bought myself a ticket and I did it. Oh, wow. And again, I was, you know, yes, you're not going, you're only going two stories up, but you got nothing.

Nobody's holding you. Yeah. And, you know, I surprised her and my daughter with that, but I did it as much for them as I was doing it for me.

Right. I knew that I had a fear. I knew that it's probably something they were going to enjoy.

And if, even if I didn't enjoy it, I would have always had a fear of missing out. And yes, I know FOMO is like 10 years ago. We don't talk about FOMO anymore, but I think that's really where my yes comes from is that I don't want to miss out.

I don't want to miss out on those moments with my family. I don't want to miss out with hanging out with industry friends. I don't want to miss out on being in the room and learning something new, even if I don't know what the topic is.

[Paul Rhodes] (10:21 - 12:40) You know, you, you, that is an interesting point if we take it and apply it to a maintenance mindset. Not missing out is a part of what happens on our communities all the time. And it actually is something at regional levels.

You know, we have maintenance technicians that have a limit to their skill. They have a limit to what they know how to do. Most recent conversation was an air conditioning system that the maintenance tech had gone as far as their knowledge took them.

And then they stopped and said, we need to replace the system, hire somebody, a contractor in to replace the system. And they did and, and it got replaced and done. And I was talking with this, this maintenance tech afterwards.

And I said, did you ask what was wrong with that system? And he had no, I had no interest. And he, he laid it off at first of, I was too busy.

I didn't have enough time. I didn't set. And it really was amazing to me that in, in my work career, how I learned what I know today is being willing to do kind of the scary, awkward, potentially embarrassing thing.

I don't know what is next. I mean, I know how to use a meter. I know how to measure voltage and amperage and ohms across these devices, but I don't exactly know how these devices work, but volts is still volts amps is still amps.

I know how to do it safely and observe all, you know, OSHA mandated safety rules, but there comes a time that we all get to the end of what our knowledge base is in, in, and I'm relating it to your story of you have a fear, a phobia of what is going on. And it's, it's a measure of character. I firmly believe to say yes or to go that one extra step beyond.

[Chris Caramanica] (12:41 - 14:21) Yeah. I always tell, I always tell my, my team members, you know, even supervisors, I don't know what I don't know. Right. And I usually do it of the, you know, from the perspective of, listen, if you don't tell me, I don't know.

And I can't help you. Right. But I like to flip the script sometimes.

Like if I don't know what I don't know, then I'm not learning. And I can't help in the future. I just, today talking about an air conditioning system, I had somebody call me and I didn't know the answer.

He did. And I said, I need you to, I said, call me later and walk me through what the issue is. Cause there's the same system that I looked at.

Right. It's a new piece of equipment for me. Never come experience it.

So I did the basics, but I said, call me later and explain it to me like I'm a three-year-old. And I wasn't doing it in a, I wasn't doing it in a, you know, self-deprecating way. Like, no, I need you to explain it to me like I'm a three-year-old.

And I find out that Paul to your point, people get to a point of knowledge where they're like, no, I'm good. Like you should, I don't care if you're, you know, in this business five minutes or 50 years, the people who've been, people who are working for 50 years, they're still asking questions. The most successful people in any organization, whether it's in, you know, the maintenance field or your friend, Elon Musk, who we were talking about earlier, right.

They're still asking questions. The smartest people in the world say yes. And they're constantly asking questions because you, once you learn a skill, you don't have to learn it again.

[Paul Rhodes] (14:23 - 15:43) You got to practice it, practice it and application of it. But yeah, I, you know, that, that a few episodes back, I did my favorite quote, which is, is, you know, Einstein never lose a holy curiosity. And for, for the audience, what Chris is referencing is a, a interview with Elon Musk that I listened to.

And I was just absolutely amazed at how curious he is. Granted his brain functions orders of magnitude above mine, but the fact that even with his brain functioning that way, love him or hate him, he's curious. And all of his, my understanding, all of his businesses stem out of the original, his original question of what would it take to get to Mars and, and live on Mars.

And that's where Tesla and SpaceX and all of those other businesses that he does comes from is that sense of curiosity. I never want to lose that. And I love that Einstein put it in those words of holy curiosity.

[Chris Caramanica] (15:44 - 15:44) Yeah.

[Paul Rhodes] (15:45 - 16:47) But there, there is something to, to explore in, in what you said of you don't, we don't know what we don't know, but the converse of that is we do know what we do know. So we know that boundary, we know that edge and kind of what we're talking about is being willing to step over that edge safely and properly and correctly. But I mean, as an industry right now, we're headed there with a two L's the, the refrigerants for next year and, and, and with all the regulatory environment that is, is changing, but it's not.

How, how are you approaching that or on your communities? Are you having to deal with some of that yet? The, and by that, I mean, the air conditioning changes with the new systems that aren't even out yet.

[Chris Caramanica] (16:48 - 19:47) Yeah. So no, not really. Just because of the sector of, of housing that we're in.

So I deal primarily with affordable housing. We have two types of systems. We have residential air conditioners that we're typically not servicing or we're not, you know, we don't have a lot of split systems or we have massive chillers that yes, it will affect those, but hopefully much further down the line.

So yes, we're not in that, you know I don't want to say, I'm just saying I'm just speaking for the sites that I currently oversee, not for WinnCompanies as a whole. But, you know, a big thing, cause I, you know, I said at the top, I am in the affordable housing sector. And I think the biggest thing that we had, you talked about regulatory was the changes from HUD with the new NSPIRE standards for inspections.

Now this is affecting, not just the affordable housing industry, it's affecting all subsidized housing. So if you are a market rate site that has a set aside for, you know, project based units, or you're getting some kind of assistance or, you know, there's some apartments at your community where you're getting them directly from your housing authority, those standards are in play. It's not just affordable housing, you know, a hundred percent affordable housing.

It could be the ones and twos that you might have. All have to follow these new standards and HUD changed the rules, you know, and they were required to by the federal government, because the old standards were almost 25 years old with zero update. So we have spent, you know, my person, myself, since probably this time last year, you know, learning new regulations, throwing out the book, right.

Throwing out literally 25 year old book. And they said, here are all the new rules. And that was a, that's been a game changer.

I mean, I'm learning stuff every single day. I'm asking questions of, and it's new for everybody. That's the best part.

The best part is when something's new. So talking about your going back to your refrigerant when it's new, it's new for everybody. It ain't one person that's like, Oh no, I've been using it for 30 years.

Well, no, it was just chemically formulated like six months ago. Right. So yeah, that mixture.

Yeah. So, you know, that is when it comes to the regulations and things like inspires, you know, or, or federal government, you know, we're all in the same boat. And it's the people that are doing well are the people who are learning it and asking the questions and going quickly.

And I'm pleased to report that I'm doing very well. I'm currently preparing for nine inspections in the course of the next four weeks. So when are you going to go to work?

Yeah. And my day job, which is, Oh, that is my day job. I have to do my other part of my day job at night.

So it's a day job slash night job. No, but that's okay. We all experienced these busy times, no matter what it is in our, in our industry.

[Paul Rhodes] (19:48 - 19:58) I, that is, that is always a fascinating discussion of, Oh, it's so busy now this season is busy. When is it not busy?

[Chris Caramanica] (19:58 - 20:27) Yeah. I have people that tell me that they're busy. I never say that I'm busy.

I say that I'm working because that's what I'm doing. You know, if, if you're telling me you're busy, you're using the time you could be working to tell me you're busy. That's my, that's just my personal feeling on it.

I have technicians to tell me how busy they are. You're standing here for 10 minutes and having a conversation with me. That's why you're busy.

[Paul Rhodes] (20:27 - 22:08) So, well, I can, I mean, I can remember. I don't complain about busy. Yeah, no.

And, and at the same time, I can remember, uh, uh, uh, being on committees and being working for associations and even in management companies and something new would come up that needed to happen. You had a new task and a new project. So you have that, you have that discussion of, okay, who's going to do this work?

And I can remember it when I was at NAA, we had that conversation because it was outside of my area of specialty and my domain of, of working. But it was something that when it was completed, it would fall partially in my domain. So I had to be involved, but somebody else had to lead it.

So the conversation went around to, okay, who are we going to get to do it? And, and, uh, it was, it was, uh, Maureen Lamb, who was the old, uh, uh, uh, used to be a head of, uh, NAAEI. She turned and looked at me and she says, Paul, who's the busiest?

And I'm like, so we take them off the list. And she says, no, if you want something to get done, you give it to the busiest person because they're the ones that are making things happen. And to this day, that is still just a mind blowing revelation because in my mind you give it to the person who has all the extra time.

[Chris Caramanica] (22:10 - 22:18) But there's a reason that that person has the extra time. I understand Maureen's point. And I actually agree with it, you know?

[Paul Rhodes] (22:19 - 22:32) Yeah. Which is why I, I want to not be busy or be busy or, you know, I'm not sure we want to take that to the logical conclusion at the personal level. I'm not sure we want to do that.

[Chris Caramanica] (22:33 - 23:00) Yeah. Yeah. I don't like to tell my wife how busy I am because that always means my honey do list gets longer.

So if she was my dear wife, if you are listening right now, please ignore everything. Caution. Be careful.

Spoiler alert. Trigger warning, trigger warning. So yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm very busy, honey.

I don't have time to do anything on the honey bee list. Sorry. Right.

[Paul Rhodes] (23:02 - 25:05) Well, we're going to take a real quick break cause you know, we got to pay the bills. So we're going to listen to a word from our sponsor and when we come back, I want to find out why you're sitting in an autopsy room. So we'll be right back in a minute.

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And, and you know, having a conversation here today with Chris Karamonica that he and I, you may have figured out we do have a history on stage doing projects, doing things. And I've been staring at this autopsy room sign and you know, in business, because we're all about business all the time. An autopsy to me is after a project is done, you do an autopsy to judge how the project died.

But that's my context for an autopsy. And I don't have no sign that says autopsy behind me. Well, what the heck?

Are you like doing surgery? Do you got like, wait a second, wait a second. No, I know it from COVID.

You took the surgical mask a little bit further than everybody and that that's it. I did.

[Chris Caramanica] (25:05 - 27:58) I told you earlier, I have a real desire to learn. So during COVID I would just do autopsies in my office. I had nothing else to do.

No, seriously though. No, Paul, you know, it is an interesting story and you know, you're actually tied to it and it's actually tied to what we were talking about in the last segment, something we were talking about in the last segment. So let me back up.

I'm I'm a collector. I, I read comic books. I'm a nerd.

I've been, you know, collecting a proud carry, you know, card carrying geek, whatever you want to call me. And I've been collecting comic books forever. Well, when I got into the maintenance business you know, even back in the days of the commercial I worked in commercial theaters on Broadway and off Broadway and I would find amazing relics and artifacts because a lot of the buildings I used to work in were a hundred years old.

The first building I ever managed was close to 200 years old. It was, it's called a colonnade row at Astor place. And it was built by John Jacob Astor, the original, not the third, the one that died on the Titanic, his, his great grandfather built colonnade row and it was actually the first building I ever managed.

Wow. And we found some great stuff there. So every subsequent job that I've had building that I've had, I always find something, you know, back in from colonnade row, I actually have a brick somewhere in my office an actual brick from the, from the building that, you know, got removed during rehab and whatever, but I actually have that.

But the autopsy room sign came from that same building we were talking about earlier that you and I first met in. So it's an apartment complex in the heart of time square. It's a hundred percent, 150 unit 12 story building in the heart of time square.

That used to be a hospital and it was a hospital that serviced some very famous people. And it has a lot of history and I don't want to misspeak on who some of those people were, but it was some very famous New York city social elites spent time in this hospital. So a couple of years ago, I was in the basement looking for oddly enough signs.

We needed to put up some exit signs. We needed to put up some emergency lights. And I started, I found this pile of, of signs and sure enough I found autopsy room.

That is a 90 year old. All it is is plexiglass letter with vinyl letters on it. And that was the sign that hung outside of the building that I manage right now in midtown Manhattan.

One of the rooms downstairs was the original autopsy room. And that was the sign they took off of the door.

[Paul Rhodes] (27:59 - 28:01) Like for the city of New York?

[Chris Caramanica] (28:01 - 29:51) No, it was just for that hospital. The hospital had, you know, back then it was, it was, it was very different, you know, you know, this, this hospital had its own autopsy room for whatever reason. I don't know too much of the history.

And I said, that's mine. And I was like, it's been sitting here. It has been an apartment building for over 30 years.

So I would assume it probably came down, you know, 30, 40 years ago. And it was just sitting in a pile somewhere. And that's, so I find these things and that's something that I found that preexisted.

And then there's always the things that happen on the job, right? There's, you know, so I have, there's always something that happens on the job and I'm like, I'm keeping that. And I have some weird, very weird things in my office that anybody else would think I was a serial killer collecting tokens.

I never crossed my mind until now. Uh-oh. Like if a cat's out of the bag.

No. So I have some really cool stuff. Like I have this hat that I got when we stopped managing a property, all of the maintenance technicians turned in their uniforms.

Right. And I was sifting through them seeing, you know, what had to go to back to the company, what could get thrown out, what could be reused. And I was going through and I found a hat and this is a special hat that I had bought for all of my maintenance teams in New York.

It's our standard wind residential hat, but I had embroidered on the side of it, New York city. So I am going to show you for those of you that can see on camera, and I will explain it to the use. Those of you are listening inside the hat are all of the answers to grace Hills, fair housing questions at the time.

[Paul Rhodes] (29:51 - 29:54) I was about to say that has since been updated.

[Chris Caramanica] (29:55 - 30:37) So I'm not giving away any trade secrets. And I want any of my folks at grace Hill to get mad at me, but on the inside of the hat, the maintenance technician wrote down one C two, two a, and then I wasn't managing it anymore, but I had to do some research and yeah, this was the community hat that anytime they had to do the fair housing training, they would pass the hat around. Oh, And it, he still wore it.

He wore it every day. With the answers to fair housing written on the inside. So one, because it's a, it's a nice little momentum, but two, it's a, it's a hell of a story that I don't get to tell that often.

[Paul Rhodes] (30:38 - 30:55) Exactly. Right. Wow.

I mean, I'm when you, when you started that story and talked about answers being there, I'm going like EPA, a CPO, how, why it was the moment in time answers.

[Chris Caramanica] (30:55 - 31:36) It was the only way they felt that they could, you know, pass the test or, you know, it was just, it was the old school. I mean, people, people still do it. It's a technology now, but you know, it was back in the day, writing them, writing them on the back of the neck of the person in front of you, your, you know, your buddy, right.

This is the math formula that you need for this test. It's right there on the back of my neck, you know? Yeah.

And that, you know, so yeah, I've had that hat probably about six years now. So if anybody wants the answers to the grace Hills, fair housing questions from six years ago, I actually have all the answers for you. So just give me a ring.

[Paul Rhodes] (31:36 - 34:09) Thank you for now being the you're now my, I know a guy that topic sitting there. I know what you mean about collecting stuff from an old building. My previous management company that I worked for, we took over a building in Ohio and the regional maintenance manager for that property.

I was visiting site the site with him and touring around and all of a sudden we're walking behind buildings and he got so excited and he goes, Oh, Paul, you got to see this. You got to see this. You, you, you won't imagine what this is.

And he goes running off. Well, I was built for comfort, not speed. So he's like running ahead and I'm just walking behind going, what the heck?

We go behind a condemned swimming pool. That the previous owner had filled in. So it was now a sand pit.

And that was one of the jobs we had to deal with his management company. But right next to that was an old beat up payphone. Now for our younger audience, a payphone was this device that was on the wall that actually had a cord on it that you didn't carry the phone around in your pocket.

And if you needed to call somebody, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when I wore the pager, I had to carry quarters with me in order to call the service, the pager service to get the number to call the resident. But this was an old style beat up, not with the, with the coin slot, the one where you lay the coin in sideways and it slides down. He, the, the story of him taking that off the wall and he took it home down here in Georgia to put it in his man cave.

And the conversation he has with his son, trying to explain to him first, the fact that there used to be a time that we didn't all carry around phones and the internet in our pockets. And then second, how to use the rotary on the phone. It's a riot.

And he's got that beat up phone hanging on the wall in his man cave.

[Chris Caramanica] (34:10 - 34:36) It's, it's amazing. So Paul, I want to go back to your maintenance mindset for a second. I'm going to flip the script on you.

Okay. We just spent a good amount of time, 10 minutes or so talking about collecting and all this other stuff. Throw out what's in your shops.

It has no monetary value for my maintenance teams listening. Okay. If you haven't touched it in five years, I guarantee you, you're not touching it this year or next year.

[Chris Caramanica] (34:37 - 34:38) Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Chris Caramanica] (34:39 - 34:40) No, Chris, you don't understand.

[Paul Rhodes] (34:41 - 34:49) I've got 150 garbage disposal collars in a bin that, that I might use one day.

[Chris Caramanica] (34:49 - 36:26) Are you saying I need to get rid of them? Paul, you're not going to use them. So, you know, there is one thing to collect something like a pay phone, like a autopsy room sign.

That makes sense. I am not advocating to keep a hundred, you know, garbage disposal collars. I'm not advocating to keep all the old light fixtures from your rehab, you know, because they just put in brand new LEDs.

You're never going to use them, take them to, you know, get it out of your brain that you are going to use it. If you haven't used it, you're not going to use it. Yes.

Right. And, you know, going back to, I think to our first segment is ask the question, do I need this? Do I need this at my site?

Do I need this for my job? If you want to take home a hundred garbage disposal collars and your cup that you're not ever going to use at the site and you want to be artistic with them, you know, you want to create games with them, whatever you want to do with them. Right.

As long as your company is okay with you taking their garbage for free, then do it. But you're not, I walk into so many sites and it's not just maintenance. It's office too.

It's, I walk into so many, we're, we might need those files. Are we legally obligated to still have those files? No, we weren't.

We haven't been, but we might, but you're not legally obligated to keep that those, you know, rows and rows of files. No, but we might need them. No, you're never going.

If you're, if you start a conversation with, I might need that, you don't need it.

[Paul Rhodes] (36:27 - 38:58) We, we, the one caveat, and I got this tip from I wish I remembered his name, a maintenance supervisor years and years ago, I was traveling through Iowa and the, the doing a training out there. And he took me through his shop and was asking me questions about a fixture or, or making a repair. And I, I, I don't really remember that piece of it, but what I do remember was I saw where he had, had parted out refrigerators to where like handles and shelves and pieces that to your point, sometimes we use it.

Yes. But the piece of it that I learned from him was I flipped over this crisper cover from a refrigerator and written in permanent marker was a date on the, on the underside of it. Interesting.

And I'm like, what is this? Is this like the production date? He goes, no, I keep refrigerator parts.

I keep them for six months. And if I haven't used it in six months, it's gone. I throw it away.

So I said, wait a second. So you put a spoil by or a use by date on everything. He goes, he goes, let me show you some.

And we walked around the corner and we went into the office and in the office, like a lot of offices, you know, you've got the flyers that all of these local businesses leave behind in your table or bulletin board or something like that. He picked up the pile of pizza order places and, and fast food takeout and the hotel down the road and all of those. And he flipped it over.

And on the underside of every one of those piles was a post-it note with a date. And that date was when it got laid down. So that in that case, they did two months for their office stuff.

So to your point, yes. Some things instantly. Okay.

If you want to keep a garbage disposal collar, that's just my pet peeve. Have one, one, that's it. And then you don't keep any more.

And if you use the one, it could happen. If you use the one, then you save the next one.

[Chris Caramanica] (38:58 - 38:58) Right.

[Paul Rhodes] (38:59 - 39:03) But that's it. One single, everything else is, is gone. Yeah.

[Chris Caramanica] (39:04 - 40:32) And to the point of your stripping down appliances, you know, Oh, Chris, I took all the parts off the stove. I took the knobs. I took the burners.

That's awesome. Why is the carcass still sitting there? That's why the autopsy room sign is there, Paul, because I, you know, you go to a site and you see the, the, the autopsy body of an appliance or the, the autopsy light fixture, right?

Where, Oh, we took, we took these pieces out. Why didn't you throw out the rest of it? The rest of it is unusable.

Take your usable stuff, save your usable stuff. I love that idea of labeling. I been doing this a long time and never heard of anybody putting a use by date.

I think it's a fantastic thing for myself. I'm going to, I plan on bringing it to my teams. Like, you know, I might just start walking around with post-it notes and quietly putting labels on.

Cause I only visit, you know, there's some sites I may only visit once or twice a year. Right. And I'm not going to remember if that part that's sitting on the countertop is still there in six months.

But if I was to put a little post-it note and it's still there, you know, in a year, six months or a year, throw it out. You haven't touched it. This is my last visit.

It can go. That's, that's right. I will put in a requisition for, for folks at my organization that are listening.

I will be putting in a requisition for a heavy amount of post-it notes.

[Paul Rhodes] (40:35 - 41:55) The post-it note was only for offices and, and in my mind, that's the only use for post-it notes in our office. That's it. That's the only one I accept.

I agree. Because too many times you get the, the office team that at four 59, they see the post-it note that was stuck on their, on their, their computer monitor. Oh, I have a work order.

Oh, I forgot this one. Well, you're going to go do it. Right.

They say as they're running out the door. Oh yeah. That now there's leadership, leadership, a lesson number.

I don't know what we're going to number it, but in on my properties, whenever that happened, the leasing team member who left it had to go with the maintenance technician and explain why their work was not done sooner. And the, the leasing would talk with maintenance because if it required staying late, then somebody is going to explain to the resident and it's not going to be the maintenance technician who can't go home on time because it was on a post-it note. Yeah.

[Chris Caramanica] (41:56 - 43:12) Or everybody honest and accountable, you know, cause a lot of times in our business it's, you know, maintenance is the, you know, and this hap, it happens, right? Yeah. Oh yeah.

You forget to do things and that's okay. But it also, you know, it's not, oh, Jimmy, Jimmy didn't come and do my work order today. Nope.

Jane forgot to give Jimmy your work order today. And we apologize for the inconvenience and we are both going to stay here and take care of it right now for you, you know, instead of, you know, and I think that's really important. I think that's something that we don't do enough is making sure that we're supporting maintenance because they have, we have it, maintenance team members have it hard.

You know, they have a, they are a front facing member of the organization. They are there early in the morning. They're late, they're late at night, they're on weekends.

And just that extra step, it's nice to see that, you know, the organization that you worked for at that time did that. You know, I wish more would do that because it's really, it really means a lot to maintenance team members. And I will tell you from personal experience, like when somebody from, you know, your property manager, community manager, leasing agent says, you know what, I made a mistake and you know maintenance is going to fix it.

You know, that means a lot. Yeah.

[Paul Rhodes] (43:12 - 43:41) It's, it's that, it's that level of, I don't want to use accountability because I think, I think in some sense it's overused, but it's that level of respect for the fact that, you know what, in essence, holding that post-it note up is telling that maintenance technician, I know you are all ready to go, but because of my mess up, you have to stay late. See ya.

[Chris Caramanica] (43:42 - 44:10) It puts everybody on a level playing field, right? We are part of a team. We are going to support each other.

We're going to make mistakes. We're going to help each other when those mistakes happen, whether it's the maintenance side, making the mistake or the operations and office side, making the mistake. Mistakes happen, right?

It's natural. But what it does do, it puts everybody as part of the team. I didn't make the mistake.

We made the mistake. We are going to correct the mistake. And that's really what I think it comes down to.

Okay.

[Paul Rhodes] (44:11 - 44:56) So here's the question then. If we're at Karamonica Management Company to where, if you are running the management company, how does a multifamily management owner, whether it's a owner operated or third party. And I think it even could be both affordable or conventional side.

How does an owner of one of those companies develop that culture where both sides, because we're kind of talking about office and maintenance work together. How do you, how do you see that culture being developed? How do you see that growing?

[Chris Caramanica] (44:59 - 48:33) Well, that's a good one. Is it time for a break? No, that's a great, it's a great question, Paul.

And you know, I think all of your listeners probably have a different, you know, take on it, but you're asking me, right. So I think that especially when it comes to maintenance, more so than anybody, there's been negative. There's negative images of what a maintenance person is.

It is what it is. Right. And it's funny.

It makes good television. You know, Mr. Traeger from friends. Hey, I'm old enough to be Schneider.

Schneider. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Schneider from.

That's one day at a time. That's old school. Yes.

And I, I, it was right there and I've, we talked about it before. You young people don't remember Schneider. There's not that much, there's not that big of an age difference, Paul.

So, you know, there are, and it was funny, the funny maintenance man comes tripping in and you know, his pants are hanging down and he doesn't, he doesn't know what he's doing. And he he's in the apartment the entire time, but is he really doing anything? Those are the negative impressions in the media that people have on maintenance.

And we don't, what we don't do enough is we don't promote internally the maintenance team members. It's, Oh, look how beautiful the property is. You know, look at the, you know, look at our luxurious pool, but you're not showcasing the guy that was out there at seven o'clock in the morning, skimming that pool, or making sure that the chemical level was correct for that picture.

And I think that's a piece that's missing. So if under Karamonica management, right. I mean, I think the biggest thing that I would do is be spotlighting and highlighting in photos at, you know, promo photos, Facebook posts.

Cause that's, that's the world we live in, right? It's what's on social media, right? It's what's in our packets.

I have never seen, I have never seen not saying it doesn't exist. Don't write me nasty emails about this. You know, I've never opened up a brochure for a community where it has shown, you know, an actual maintenance person doing actual maintenance work.

It was a stock photo. Yeah. It might show a model and you know, a little bit about modeling and we'll talk about that in future episodes.

But you know, it'll show a stock photo because that's what looks good. No, these are your maintenance team members. This, these are your people and that's what I don't see.

So yes, that's is what I would do because I think the public perception affects how opera, how the office side of our business also sees us. Ooh, you have the public perception of maintenance. So your residents see these, oh, he's just a lazy bum.

Every time I see him, he's not working. Well, was he working in your apartment, ma'am? No.

Then how would you see him working? Right. If you don't see him, he's working.

If you see him, he's going from one worksite to another. And in the office, you walk in an office, you see everybody working because they're sitting behind it, behind a desk or leading a tour. You're seeing them working.

You only see maintenance when they're not physically doing something unless it's in a common space. Right.

[Paul Rhodes] (48:34 - 48:56) And, and that is a limited time. And, and the majority of time we're in vacant apartments, getting it ready, or we're responding to specific work orders in apartments, getting ready. Yeah.

That's a, that is a really cool take. And I look forward to seeing those social media posts from Karamonica management company.

[Chris Caramanica] (48:56 - 49:53) Well, you know, one of the things I like that some companies do is, and I'm a big fan of it is when a new resident moves in, they don't just introduce the maintenance team. They actually, the maintenance team member who flipped that apartment, made that unit ready. Oh yeah.

Walks the move in. Now I know it's not always conceived, you know, it's not always possible with timing, but you know, some, some of those companies will have the maintenance team member, you know, make an appointment where he shows up on Monday and says, you know, they move in on a Saturday. That's his day off.

You know, I love to hear those things. I love to hear those stories and tales because that is a personal touch. You are now making a personal connection.

You know, if there's anything wrong in your apartment, I apologize in advance. I'm the one who turned it. I will gladly come back and fix it.

Or if you are so happy and you never find anything broken, my name is John. I did all the work. I'm proud of this is what I did.

And it sets you off on a very good foot at moving.

[Paul Rhodes] (49:54 - 50:05) Kind of like the, the business cards that are left behind in hotel or the tent cards of, of my name is Gertrude. I serviced your room or, or, or that.

[Chris Caramanica] (50:06 - 50:24) And I'd be interested to hear how many, how many apartment communities slipped that. I know the business card for the policing agent is in the move in packet. Yeah.

But is there a, you know, hotel, you call it a hotel card. Yeah. A tent card.

You know, I'm Johnny and I, you know, I made your apartment ready for you.

[Paul Rhodes] (50:25 - 52:32) I wonder, you know, you, you bring up an interesting point that made me think at, at earlier this year at a conference, I went to sat in on a session about touring and how new residents are finding out about communities. And if I remember correctly, I want to say it was over 20% of residents move in to an apartment. And the first time they had face-to-face human to human contact was when they picked up their keys to where everything else was online, signing the lease, the tour, the, everything else was online.

And I've got to wonder I'm a huge proponent of exactly what you say of the, the maintenance technician who turned the unit, who did the work being one of the people who greets that new resident for even one more reason. Actually two more reasons. The first is to finish out that thought of what if one of the first human beings that this new resident saw was a positive interaction with a maintenance technician, right?

That would be, that would be awesome. But actually the second piece of that is almost unconscious to where if I tell my maintenance technician, Hey Bobby, this apartment that you're punching today, you're getting ready today on Friday, you're going to meet the new resident and you're going to take them on the tour through unconsciously. That means Bobby is if I've got to stand up there and do, I'm gonna work better.

Not saying that Bobby's a bad worker, but there is a little bit of that psychological pressure that goes in to providing good service.

[Chris Caramanica] (52:33 - 52:56) Yeah. And the way that the, you know, I know we have so much to talk about and so little time, but the way that our industry is going and you, you just touched on it, you know, it's we're becoming more centralized in our leasing. We know that, you know, AI and computers cannot plunge your toilet, cannot fix your dishwasher.

[Paul Rhodes] (52:56 - 52:57) There's not an app for that.

[Chris Caramanica] (52:58 - 54:14) There's not an app for that. I'm trying to create one, but would you believe nobody's giving me money to create an app to plunge a toilet? I've tried.

I've tried. I've made some pitches. One on shark tank didn't go so well, but I want to see the case for the phone.

That's got the plunger attached. I'll show, I'll send it to you. So, you know, the personal touch is coming from your maintenance team members now because they aren't going away.

They are there. They might not, there might be less of us, you know, there may be some things that are jobbed out, you know, out of need or short staff, you know, environment, but at the end of the day, maintenance is going to be there. Maintenance is going to be the one that is that front facing person and no better way.

If they're the only people that may ever come in physical contact with your residents, we should do everything we talked about. We're headed out as an industry, making sure that we're promoting them. If they're the face of the organization now, they should be the face of the organization.

If they're the only live person, physical in touch person, a resident may have in their entire tenure. They should be very involved in that person's life from move in to move out.

[Paul Rhodes] (54:14 - 54:53) Now, now you're, you're, you're about to change the maintenance mindset into a marketing show, right here, how to market. That's that's it. Market with a maintenance mindset, more Ms. We need more Ms in everything, you know, it's going to be that way. Well, before we do that, although I do think, it's a really good idea. Sometime on some show hint, hint, hint we need to do an episode on a move in process and what that looks like and suggestions and ideas.

[Chris Caramanica] (54:54 - 55:11) And a couple of people on your multifamily media network and maybe, you know this is a, this will be a teaser for maybe a future crossover episode with some other folks. I don't want to call them out by name.

[Paul Rhodes] (55:12 - 55:32) I will call one out by name and we'll go ahead and announce it. If you haven't seen all the social media posts by now, by the time this airs, Mr. Cara Monica may not have a management company yet, yet knowing you, you're going to say yes yesterday already too.

[Chris Caramanica] (55:32 - 55:42) Yeah, that's true. By the time this airs, I may have a management company actually. Let me know if you need a hardworking maintenance educator.

[Paul Rhodes] (55:42 - 56:06) I'm here for you, man. Thank you, Paul. But the, the end result is Chris will be a new host on the multifamily media network.

And my wonderful, absolutely fantastically irritating competition, I guess in the maintenance space.

[Chris Caramanica] (56:06 - 58:49) Not competition. Thank you, Paul. No, not competition.

You win. Not, not competition at all. You know, just, you know, for, for the listening and viewing audience.

When, when Paul got this show, he called me and told me all about it and said, when I'm ready to have a guest, you'll be my first guest. So thank you for that. And the minute that the team at multifamily media network, and I sincerely thank Mike Brewer and Paul Marks for, you know, talking to me and inviting me into this, into this rag tag family.

I called Paul and I told him and he goes, you said, yes, didn't you? And I said, yeah, I said, yes. So, you know, I'm very excited for those of you that are maybe hearing about this for the first time.

The name of my podcast is beyond the work tales in multifamily maintenance. I am going to cover all of the things that Paul road. Doesn't Paul roads does not cover.

So that's, there's going to be very little content on my show. Very little, but yeah, I'm, I'm very excited about it. At the time that this airs, my first episode should already be out.

So I will shamelessly plug myself a little further and, and ask you all to check it out, like, and subscribe it. I will, I am having, I don't have any guests yet, but I will, I have plans. I have a very good friend of mine who is raising his hand right now.

And yeah, I think there will be some further conversations and I hope Paul will be a guest on, on, on a future show, but I will be having guests. And the goal is to talk about, you know, not just how to do it. It's not a, it's not a how to podcast.

It's really, it's how did, how did we do it? You know, how did we learn from it? How did we grow from it?

How did we learn not to do it again? And I want to talk to anybody and everybody, whether they are a maintenance professional, a C C suite level executive and affiliate. I want to talk to everybody in our industry because everybody in our industry has a maintenance tale to tell, and I want to hear it and I want to share it and I want to talk about it.

So that's, that's what my show is going to be about. And I'm so excited that it's officially out there in the world now. And you know, and I hope everybody enjoys it.

I'm, I'm looking forward to pressing play on it.

[Paul Rhodes] (58:50 - 59:36) And I really I'm excited. I mean, the fact that you and I have gotten to share stories here today, me is just meaningful. Again, every single time you and I get the opportunity to talk, it's, it's enlightening and gives me a new perspective on things and, and new ideas.

So as we, as we finish up here, there is one question that I always ask guests and that is what mindset in your life has led to your success or your situation today, if you had to pick one, what would it be?

[Chris Caramanica] (59:38 - 1:02:07) Well, I thought about this cause I've heard some other folks you've talked to. So I knew this was coming. You know, at the beginning I would have said before this conversation, I would have said, listen, I, I don't hold on to anything.

Right. I, you know, I, I go through life and work like a goldfish. Right.

I don't hold grudges. If something happened, I move on, move on to the next thing. You know what?

That was a mistake. I screwed up. I can't hold it inside.

You know, just keep moving, just keep swimming and onto the next thing. Right. That that's how I really manage.

It's how I encourage my team members to work. Is it like, Hey, you know what? Sometimes you lose.

Sometimes it's a bad day. You know what? But tomorrow's a new day.

You got to start fresh. You can't hold it. After our conversation today, you know, it is no matter if it's your work life or your professional, you know, your professional life or your home life is don't limit yourself, learn, say yes.

Try something new. There is a truth. You know, there is a true fear of missing out.

There's a reason why the term exists, right? You are missing out. If you're not doing something that you're not comfortable with, you don't know that skill, you've never done it before.

You know, you, you had, you had an experience with, you know, spicy food in your twenties. So you're never going to eat spicy food again. You're missing out.

You know, you don't know what you don't know. And if you put all that stuff from the past and it's affecting your future, you got it. You got to get rid of it.

You got to let it go. And there is that fear of missing out and you're going to learn some great things about yourself. And, uh, you know, I never thought that I would have a podcast.

It wasn't even a, it wasn't even a dream of mine. It wasn't even on my, on the list of things. Right.

Um, talking to you was always on my list of things, but we do that often enough. Um, but actually having a podcast is something that I was not expecting. It wasn't on my, for a term that's been out there.

It's not, it wasn't on my bingo card for 2024. Right. Um, and sometimes that's okay.

So I said, you know, I said yes. And, uh, we'll see how it goes.

[Paul Rhodes] (1:02:07 - 1:02:18) I'm looking forward to it. And it is, it is always so great. So to summarize your mindset, just keep swimming and let it go.

[Chris Caramanica] (1:02:19 - 1:02:19) Yeah.

[Paul Rhodes] (1:02:20 - 1:03:30) So Chris Caramonica, his new podcast, Disney Rewind. That's what it is. Beyond the work.

Hails and multifamily maintenance. Beyond the work. Uh, I hope everybody will listen to it.

Uh, thanks again, Chris, for joining me on camera. I know we'll be talking again soon and, and we will have to have an episode either mine or yours about make ready processes and, and what works, what doesn't and thoughts to have it. And thank you dear audience for joining again for an episode of the maintenance mindset.

Uh, and I'll see you somewhere. Thank you again to app work for sponsoring today's episode. Imagine carrying a digital make ready board in your pocket with work order tracking and maintenance technician leader boards designed to gamify the process and bring out your team's competitive best app work offers solutions to headaches that have plagued the multifamily industry for decades.

Visit www.appworkco.com today.