TMA - Front Nine: Turnover Edition

 Get this. I can do it. I can do it.

Welcome to this episode of The Maintenance Academy, front Nine Conversations in Multifamily. We are in Greenville, South Carolina at Carolina Golf at Botany Woods, and joining me for today's round of golf is Mr. Influencer himself, Chris Konica, co-host. Of the Turnover podcast. And then we also have the Professor of All things, Nathan, it's Paul Rhodes, and, uh, professor, I am, I am just super, super pumped to record this episode.

I'm happy to have both of you out here on the golf course. Have either of you ever played golf before? Ever? 

I played it as a, as a young man, as a teenager. Uh, done a bunch of nine holes. Looking forward, uh, to what could be very interesting 'cause I probably haven't swung a club in about 35 years. Um, you said 35 by the way?

35 years. So we'll see outside of, uh, you know, outside of a driving range, but, uh, no, actually on a course, probably close to 35 years. 

Wow. Paul. So since we turn questions, your question was, have I ever played golf? Yes. I have walked through a golf course twice in my life. I'm not sure you would classify what I did on the course as playing golf, so I'm gonna go with no, but I enjoy the walk.

We'll see what happens.

Okay, so we're playing for Mark's ball, rock, paper, scissors for next. Rock, paper, scissors, rock, paper, scissors, lizard spot. Any of this footage ends up on America's Funniest Home video. I want to cut. I'm just saying

look at it. 

Oh, not bad. Hey. Okay. It went in the appropriate direction.

Yeah. Okay. That was, that was good. 

That counts as 

one, right? Because he actually hit the ball. Remember? Remember the format? Okay. The format is we're gonna play from the, the best ball. Uh, Paul, you, 

you're right here. Right here. Yeah. I was, I was actually in line with almost the hole in the green. I was in line with the green, not the hole.

I was in line with the green. Hey, I consider that a win.

Nice. 

Well, that was supposed to go on the green. Not short, but one of y'all can do better. Closer. We'll go from right, right around here.

Okay.

I was gonna say now, now in golf, parlay, that means a hook, right? 

That 

was a hook, correct? I hooked as well. Your hook, I think was sharper, like you're fishing. Your forehead. Still have not. Paul, I'll ask you first,

how many times did you like when you started this multifamily career of yours? Very prestigious, multifamily career for Mr. P Rhodes here? Yes. How many times in your career did you say this was temporary before fully committing to multifamily? If the question is, did I say it 

probably hundreds. How many times did I actually do something about it once?

Yeah. 

I left multifamily maintenance, so I became a pool contractor. 

Mm-hmm. 

To where I worked for a company that designed and built and renovated swimming pools to where like one of the, the. We did two big things of note. One was, you know, when a pool floats up out of the ground because the hydrostat or you drain it, um, the company I worked for, we'd go in and actually remove the bottom of the pool.

We'd cut the sides, put a new bond beam on, and we'd re dig a pool in the original location using the walls from the original pool. Mm-hmm. That was, that was some really cool engineering. The other thing was we re-engineered the water sanitation system at the waterpark in Marietta, Georgia after the e Coli outbreak they had.

Oh, 

wow. 

So that was really cool. But that was where I left. I did that for one year and three days, and right at the end of the year, right at the end of the year, I said, you know. I actually, you don't know what you have until it's gone, right? Mm-hmm. I missed the residence, I missed the business, I missed the flow, the, the unbridled panic, and then also the structure that multifamily had.

So I left once and came back, and I, I, my plan right now is to retire as a part of the industry, some in some form or fashion. Yeah, having been on the light side properties, the dark side, the, the vendors, and then the weird side, the association side. I'm gonna be on one of those sides for the rest of my career.

I'm, I, that is my plan. 

Yeah.

Let's pick, we'll pick these up and go on to the next, but Chris, same question for you. Like how, how many, how many times, because you can't go anywhere. In our industry to any conference or to any, uh, association event or, or anything without hearing some keynote saying, alright, show of hands, who chose the multifamily industry in their career?

And nobody's hands get raised in that entire conference. So, you know when, when, when I hear that, when I thought about the question, you know, how, how many times did you say this is temporary? Before actually fully. Just, you know, like, I think some people have been in it 10 years and they're still like, no, this is temporary.

This is temporary. They just, but they can't, they can't get out or they don't want to get out. So, so like, you know, Chris, or if you want to approach the question a different way, instead of how many times did you say this is temporary? Like, when, when did you decide, and I mean, and we know you, we've had this conversation before, right?

We know, we know you came from. From Broadway, from the Arts. We know you came from the stage 

Yeah. 

Into maintenance. But, and, and we, we, again, we know the story, but tell, 

yeah. 

Tell the people viewing what 

coming up in, uh, you know, being, I was educated with a arts management degree and my goal was to work on Broadway.

You know, I'm a New York City kid. Born, born and raised, right out, right outside of the city. And, uh, that was my goal. And in college I was like, ah, I'm never gonna be good enough to work in New York City, so I'll go to Chicago. So I went to Chicago with my best friend and roommate, and we had a great time there and I would've loved going to Chicago, but I kind of, and I've done this throughout my career, my entire life, right?

I said, no, I'm good enough for New York City. Okay? So I applied for jobs in New York City and that's where, that's where I went. And I think, you know, our generation. You know, the late Gen Xers, uh, early Gen Xers, we, we watched the generations before us. It, it was life. 

Yeah. 

You know, you got into, my father was a police officer for 20 years.

Like when you got a job, there was no, there was no job hopping. There was No, it was, you're, you're, you're all in. So my first two theater jobs, I worked off Broadway for Blue Banker. 

Yeah. Like, so 

cool. That was outta college. Cool. I 

was, yeah. 

Love that math. So cool. Know I got to work, you know, I, I was like, oh.

At that time I was like, you know, we all know I'm not a sports guy, but I was like, I'm working for the Yankees. I'm like, how fing, like I'm working for Blueberry Group and I got so involved in the company and the culture and the art of it, and then I just hit a point where I was like, no, I think I'm ready to move on.

You know? I was like, all right. And then I got to work on Broadway and I'm like, oh, now I'm working for the Yankees. Right? Like. It was the best of the best. And wait, now I'm on Broadway. Yeah. Now I'm doing Broadway. You know, stuff happens and, uh, got outta the industry and got into the apartment industry.

And then I got to work for one of the largest REITs in the us. I was like, I'm working for the Yankees. 

Yeah. 

As you know, as a New Yorker, like I'm, no, I'm working for one of the best REITs. And, you know, I did my five, six years there, 11 properties and, uh. Then I, you know, I was like, oh, I, I, I know I'm better.

I know I can do something. And I got cocky, you know, after 15 years of, you know, working, I, uh, I got a little cocky 'cause I had worked for the Yankees, so I should always be able to work for the Yankees, no matter where I was. Went to a small private operator. I was there six weeks. Oh. Because I, in their mind, was not good enough.

But then I got a job. And I'm working for the Yankees again, and I've been working for the Yankees for another 10 years. And, you know, to, to flip your question, at no point did I ever think any of my jobs were temporary because of how I was raised and what I, what I witnessed it, it every job, what every job I had, whether it was Blue Man Group, working on Broadway, working for Avalon Bay, working for wind companies.

Now it was, no, this is it. Yeah. For me it was never. Temporary. Yes. I've had job offers, I've had conversations throughout my entire career. Um, you know, I don't know, I don't know when the next thing is, but for me, if I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go all in. And that's what I've done in, in my four major, you know, organizations that I've worked at, over, over my, you know, 25 year career.

Ooh. Uh. Right. You know, and it's not, it's not, it's not one and done. Right. It's, it's not that. For me, it was never, nothing is ever temporary for me. That's just who I am. I think it's a great question because I think there are a lot of people who think like that, that like, oh no, this is, this is a stepping, and nothing was ever a stepping stone for me.

It was, I'm gonna go all in, and right now I'm all in, all in, and I've been all in with, with this company for 10 years, which has been my longest. 

Yeah. 

You know, I think that goes to show 

that, Chris, just because like you said, you like no, you, you don't think of it as a stepping stone. Is just here. Like, I think that goes to why you've been successful in what you're doing.

Yeah. I mean, you know, I think we've, we've three talked about this, like, and you've said it, so I'm not saying anything you haven't said, but, but you know, you've said when, when Paul and I start geeking about refrigerant, you're like, whoa, whoa, no, that's not me. That's not my lane. Yeah, no, y'all have at it.

But I, but because you, you jump in, you commit and you just submit to it and like, no, this is my home. This is, this is, this is my industry. This is what I love. I think that's why you've been successful. As successful as you have been. Right? 

I mean, I know I, you know, absolutely. And I, you know, I know what my weaknesses are in every career that I've ever had.

Right? I knew, like my golf swing is one of my biggest weaknesses. 

Hey, ho. Okay. 

Okay. With a weak golf swing, he said to, there we go. Gotta go. I think in the post COVID era, it was a great, it was a great buzzword. It was awesome. We don't hear it as much anymore. Um, but all it was, all it was doing was putting a name to what every.

Company deals with, thank you. What every employee deals with is lack of engagement. Yeah. And that is, you know, and lack of engagement is twofold, right? Oh, you just call it quiet quitting. It's like, no, you're, your, your employees are no longer engaged. 

Yeah. You're, you're, I, I agree. I, I agree. Where I was going with it, I think you're labeling an excuse, 

right?

Yeah. That's, that's all. It's, you're just formalizing an excuse and. You know, it came as an outgrowth of, of COVID and, and the, the forced job security that people had if you had a job that you weren't being let go from, but due to the changing working conditions. 

Right. 

I almost think, I almost think right now, maintenance workers.

Intentionally or unintentionally we're dealing with whiplash. 

Okay. Correct. 

Still from From the pandemic. I mean, we're five years after. Yeah. During that period, we were told repeatedly, you're essential. We need you. You need to be there. You're essential. So we stayed. We were there, we were in it, and then right afterwards, zero recognition or very minimal recognition.

And it's back to business as usual. Meanwhile, our offices, they got to work remotely. All of these other things got to work remotely. And right now with, you know, this is just dawning on me, it's possible. This is one of my reactions to fk. So much fake knowledge. Uh uh. Is that we are now telling our workers that we're gonna take the routine stuff off, that you were so essential in doing during that time period, and now we're gonna give that to somebody else and we'll just decrease head count.

Okay. And that, that piece of it is outside of maintenance. I think that's all across and how that plays in, I don't know. I'm just talking off the top of my head, playing golf here.

Teaching me also, you think ahead. I'm going, what are you doing? You said you only needed, 

you 

know, eight

scrambled. When we're scrambling, what we're doing is 

my, oh, okay. Okay.

I saw yours break and so I, I clearly played that wrong.

Do it. Yes. Yes. I, I would like to maybe continue the conversation on the quiet, quitting, but I, I wanna That's fine. For lack of a better term. Turn it uhhuh because, and, and maybe if I, if I use the, the proper words, this will, this will make sense. But do you think. Maintenance, quiet quits. When they feel like, okay, um, you've interviewed for my property, I'm gonna pay you X dollars an hour to work.

Yep. 

I have a choice. As the person who applied to either say, yes, I'll do the work for that money. 

Yep. Mm-hmm. 

Or no. If I say yes, that I'm willing to work for X dollars an hour, that means I'm committing all of my skills, all of my knowledge, 

all in like what 

Chris is 

saying, 

I am all in. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

So does it bother you?

'cause I know you've heard it when maintenance individuals that maybe you talk to, you come across and it's like, you know, um. We're gonna be doing some renovations, we're gonna do some rehabs, or we're gonna do, oh, you don't pay me enough for that. I'm like, no, I pay you what I offered you or no. You need to increase my pay if you want me to do better work.

Right, 

right. Yeah. Like I am, I don't, maybe not quiet quitting, but do Well, there's three weaponized incompetence. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Do I. I only do so much because I feel like I'm worth more, but I'm only getting paid this, so I'm only gonna give you 50% of my ability. 

You see, the problem is expectation setting, right?

So for your example, you've hired this technician, and when you sit with him, it's about you are gonna do routine plumbing work orders, you're gonna do HVAC calls, you know you're gonna clean the ground. Then what happens is expectations shift, oh, we got a new owner. We're gonna be going through a rehab.

Now the one or two turns that you are typically doing a month is now five. 

Mm-hmm. 

You're now assisting a project manager. 

Right. 

So that's the problem that, so I have, I have run into that and heard about that more. Because we hire you at X dollars to do X job. 

Yeah. 

And then we change the job. Sure. But the change even slightly, it has nothing to do with your skills.

Yeah. You hired me to do light plumbing, light electrical, and paint and apartment. 

Mm-hmm. 

Now you're asking me to replace floors. Now you're asking, I can do all that, but that's not what you 

hired. Me for, you hired me in the same allotment of time with the same resources. 

Yeah. 

So we're not adjusting any other parameter except we're increasing the level of correct expectation on you.

Correct. As the worker. Yes. I, I agree with that observation.

Oh, 

look at that. Geez. 

Expectations are, are one thing, but you know, my, my question to you guys is, is job descriptions 'cause they, they vary Yes. So greatly. And 

even 

in that variety, yeah. You've got, there's, there's the job posting, you know, this is what we're looking for. And then the candidate comes onto the site and tell you.

In my understanding, the longer the position is vacant, the goalpost for what is acceptable for someone to fill that role moves absolutely moves. I like that you brought up the job description piece because that is something I think that we do as an industry. We do a poor job of maintaining and adjusting.

Yes. 

It's a part of that expectation setting. It's a part of. Making sure that our entire organization at all levels understands what, not only the expectations are, but defines the job that we're expecting people to do. 

Yeah. And you know, job descriptions are a tricky thing. There's no, there's gotta be, you know, especially for larger companies and, and this doesn't matter what industry you're in.

Yeah, yeah. 

Uh, you know, they have to, they all, they have to meet a certain legal burden because there's certain things. You can put and not put in a job description. Mm-hmm. But our industry, we're not UPS. Right. So like, you know, I'm sure the job description for a UPS driver Yeah. I think Pierce is better, is the same.

And I would, you know, I would hazard a guess that all UPS drivers are pretty much doing the same thing on a regular basis. Mm-hmm. You know, they have certain times and things that they have to do, what they can lift and. And what they can't lift. But then when you look at a job description, we could have identical job descriptions that migrate state of New Jersey and in the great state of Georgia, but the expectations of the onsite property team, let's take corporate out of it, right?

Yeah. Corporate, corporate set the standard they've set the jd right? Like that's, that's where the, the job description typically comes from, right. Then you start to get down to, we can have the exact same job description in two different states and then, but the job is different in the great state of New Jersey, right?

For numerous variables. We have, you know, different weather 

and you put it here, you get out here because for us to do that, 

it's possible.

All it takes is one Good shot. Paul, what are some of the funniest on-call excuses? You 

can remember I got a call from a property. We were trying to, we were trying to specify emergencies. Yeah. And um, and, you know, find the line. Let's specify 'em, and if it's not that you're not going out. 

Yep. 

Had a resident call that their garbage disposal was clogged.

Yeah. 

Congratulations. Sunday afternoon, garbage disposal's, clogged faucet. No water going anywhere. Water's not going down, but the garbage disposal's clogged. And this resident is just 10 called the, called the uh, service. This was back when we had pagers. They apparently called the service five or six times, and finally the service called me and I called the service back and the, the lady at the service basically said, look, they won't stop calling.

They're blowing up the service. Can you please just call them directly? Okay. So I called, told her it wasn't an emergency. You still have water, you still have a faucet, you've got your tub, you've got water. I'll be out there first thing in the morning. This lady wouldn't let it go. Would not let it go.

Finally, I'm fine. I go out there because every, every 10, 15 minutes my pager's going off because now the service is just going through so fine. I go out there and in the garbage disposal. Did you know that a red solo cup. Fits perfectly in an in sink orator drain. 

Yes, I do 

like for a seal, 

especially if they're from Joe's Crab Shack there because, uh, yeah, I've done that.

So yeah, I get there and all I do, I turn on the garbage disposal. You hear it humming underneath and the garbage, the sink is full of water. I get, you know, put on gloves, reached out. It's a solo pull, a solo cup all down in there, garbage disposal's fine. I just handed the lady the solo cup and I left. I didn't say anything.

I didn't do anything. It was there. So yes, that, that's the one I will quote for this moment. 

I will let you take that put and then I'll continue my story. We'll be so the next hole? Yeah. 

Yep.

Oh. So here at Carolina Golf at Botany Woods. There are nine individual greens, but 18 tee boxes. So you can play essentially 18 holes and you have a different look, uh, for, for 18 holes. So that's why that one says 13. This one says four. That must be the back nine. 

Well, it is the back nine. And, uh, remind me, uh, the next, at the next hole, we'll start the next hole with the interesting story.

That you might know, but we'll tell your, your listeners that Paul and I heard, uh, when you stepped away about this course. So yeah. So a little bit more to come on that a little. Uh, oh, you know, I like to do a little, uh, teaser. You may or may not know this, and, uh, I thought it was a pretty cool fact. 

Yes. 

Oh, very cool.

Um, 

so back to your, back to your question of on call. Um, I'm gonna take you back to, I wanna say it was October. 2012. Okay. Uh, you guys experienced it to some degree down here, hurricane Sandy? 

Yes. Yep. 

Right down here. It was a hurricane up by me. It had already hit, uh, tropical storm levels once it hit New Jersey and, and New York.

Um, the, you know, the lead up to the storm, and I've told this story, you know, several times. You know, we were up for, you know, 38 straight hours, 

you know? Oh, yeah. 

Prepping the property. 

Mm-hmm. 

I had a team of about, you know, myself, five guys, you know, I lived on property. Um, and it is the only time in my 16 plus years in this industry that I've actually had to yell at a resident.

It was during 

you yelled at a resident, 

like actually full throated scream. Right. Um, so what happened was, we're there four 

letter words involved? I think 

I 

wanna know 

this information going in. We're going, we're in the middle of, we're in the middle of the tropical storm. This was probably somewhere in the range of about 10 o'clock at night.

Right. And I, I was managing two high rise buildings. I had a 20 story high rise. I remember the story and a and a 40 story high rise. And we get a call. I was stationed in the 40 story that was our home base, but we still were. Making sure everything was going on. So we got a call and a woman is frantic on the phone.

You know, my window's broken, I need maintenance. My window's broken. My window's broken. My window's broken, and we had windows that broke during the story. Yeah, we were boarding up. I had a patio door that I had to hold by its handle, and the frame as it's trying to blow into Long Island sound while I was waiting for my guys to come.

Help me and board it up. So it was shortly after that incident that we got this call. So I'm like, okay. So I went over as the lead and it was a hurricane. Yep, A tropical storm. I had to run a block and a half to the other building, soaking wet. I walk in and I said, I said, ma'am, which window is it? And she points to the window and it wasn't broken.

No glass, no wind coming in, no water. And she looked at me and goes, oh, I can't get it to close all the way. There was probably, maybe a quarter of an inch gap. I'll give the re the resident, uh, benefit of the doubt. She wasn't able to get the, the window, maybe it was a half inch. So there was a little bit of water drip.

Okay. And I full throated screamed at this woman. This is not an emergency. You know, this is not, we are, we are all trying to get through this together. Right. And you not being able to close your window in a thousand unit apartment community with probably 3000, 4,000 windows. It is not an emergency. So, but I dealt with it.

I, the, the funny thing is, is I still dealt with the service request. 

Yeah. 

I still made sure that even after I screamed at this woman who again, for her it was an emergency. 

That's 

right. 

I still made sure that the window closed and locked and slammed the door behind me as I walk out, because at the end of the day, that's what we did.

That's right. Yes.

Oh, that's a 

shot. Uh, fake turf.

It's a war burn 

that's 

gonna roll, 

it's gonna roll, roll, 

roll, 

weather related stories, because that is a, that is a huge piece, right? Yes. Yeah. It's a huge piece of what we do is the weather. Mm-hmm. Whether it is scorching heat of the Midwest and the South, or, you know, our, our dear friends down here, you know, in, in Florida, in South Carolina and Georgia, when it comes to things like hurricanes.

Your, you have any good weather stories, because that is, that is not something you can write in a job description. Yeah. No. You cannot expect people to know what to do when you get severe weather. 

Yeah. 

Let's talk about severe weather for a little bit. 

True. So I, for, for me, the, the first thing that comes to mind, I was in Concord, unless you're from Concord, then you say Concor.

But I was in Concord, North Carolina. Wait, is there an s in the middle of that? Concord Con? Concord? Concord, no. Greensville, no, no. Concord. I was in Concord, North Carolina. And, uh, we had a snowstorm and I was at a, a property, I won't say the name of the property, but uh, was, was there and our property. I had lost, had lost power, but we were without power for an extended period of time.

And residents took to themselves and took the, uh, the, the, the pet waste stations, the metal baskets, 

uhhuh 

on the pet waste stations. 

Right. 

Cut them off of the poles. And started co making fires in them to like cook food and keep warm. And, and it was like this whole, we would, I mean, I, I was the one, the maintenance guy on call and, uh, I was, we knew the storm was coming and I said, I can't be stuck 15 miles away.

I'm gonna go stay on the property in case something happens. And, and so I, I kind of, you know, moved into the property for a, for a period of time, but. But you know, the maintenance, the, or the maintenance, just the residents just took the baskets off the folds and, uh, start putting fires in 'em and just to keep warm and cook food.

And that was, yo, I can't put. 

Uh, 

Ryan Barber. Thank you. Shout out again for letting us come out to Carolina Golf of Botany Woods. We really appreciate it. Alright, carry on. 

So, Ryan told me that this, this course has a little bit of, uh, his historical significance, which I found extremely interesting. Okay.

This was designed by George Cobb four years after he designed the three par course at Augusta. So they like to say this is the nine. The, the nine holes that he didn't get into Augusta. These is, this is the, the back nine or the additional nine for the, the 

lost. The lost 

nine. The lost, I'm sorry, the lost nine.

Wow. 

From Augusta. 

Okay. I didn't know that. 

Yeah, he, he, he's from this area. Uh, and, uh, you know, his in this course was built in 1962 and the Augusta Par three, which he designed, opened in 58. 

Hmm. 

So this was all designed after that, and I figured as a golf nerd and a little bit of a historical nerd, we were talking about Augusta earlier, I found that really, really interesting.

Yes. 

That's cool. 

Like there's, there's some history here and that's for, for golf fans. 

Yeah. When did you learn the difference between confidence and competence? 

I don't know. I'll let you know. I was gonna say, I'm not even sure I'm today years old to know the difference between those. Those two. I I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna flip 

it, ma, I mean, maintenance related, right?

Yeah, yeah. Somebody come in like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, are you competent? Like, can, can you actually do the hype that you say you can? I mean, when you considering people that we're interviewing 

Yeah. 

Because the, the, the age of the internet, I mean, everyone's a YouTube hero, like, I mean, but having, being confident in what you're doing versus being competent.

In what you're doing. Do we have a problem with that? So if you wanna change the question, do we have a problem with competence versus competence? 

As with full disclosure. Okay. With full disclosure while you take your shot. Um, I have always led more and this should not come as a surprise to anybody that knows me.

Um, more on the confidence. Um, I've always lacked competence when it comes to certain areas. But what I personally have the differentiator. Oh, I heard es 

We, we now need a new ball. 

Uh, you know, I've always, I've always, there's 

zero competence. I am confident that there is no competence on display here. 

You know, to go back to your question, I've always felt, felt more on the confident side than the competent side.

I, I make no qualms about. Right. Sure. Even when I'm doing interview, you know, I'm, you know, when I've interviewed for jobs or, you know, we've talked about the industry. We were talking earlier, you, you mentioned it a couple of holes earlier, like HVAC, like I'm real confident when it comes to HVAC, but I'm not confident enough to do certain things.

What I think my, my con, my confidence has helped me is to be able to identify that in others. Sure. Which I think is something that is lacking. People are, you know, in the interview process, a lot of people are looking for confidence and they look past the confidence. I can tell when you're confident and confident, I can tell when you're not confident and confident and there's other people who can't do that.

I can just, because that's what I fall on the spectrum. 

Right, 

right. I don't ask, uh, I love it when somebody brings up, well, you know, how do you wire a three-way switch? That's not what you need to be asking during, from my perspective, what you need to be asking. Mm-hmm. You need to be able to walk me through, you know, what would you do to troubleshoot an issue with a three-way switch.

It's about if you can talk a good game, you can talk a good game and that will show me your, your confident. I also don't know the names of parts. I also, you know, I will call it a do hickey. I will, I have no problem doing that. Right. I have been working on, I, you, you, if you were to set, you know, a package system, a P tac, a a, you know, a chiller all next to me, I'd be like, air conditioners, 

uh, uhhuh.

And you would not be wrong. And I would not be wrong. Right. But that's, that's the thing is everybody wants, you know, especially when you get somebody who's barely been in the industry. He didn't know. He didn't know the name of that tool that we're supposed to use, or he didn't know that that was, you know, you know, a siphon valve.

And it's like, okay, does he know how to troubleshoot it? Does he know how to actually take it apart, put 

it back 

together? I don't care if he knows the word. I don't know the words. 

Uhhuh, 

I've learned a lot of the words. Yeah. 

And 

I think that's a, that's a, that's where it comes to confidence first competence is because you might be talking to somebody who's very competent, but your.

Your Yeah. Self is what is stymieing them. 

Yeah. And I, I, I don't think that there's, there's one that's better than another. Like, I, that wasn't a, a gotcha question. Yeah. You know, like it's, it's, I think that that confidence personally, me, I would hire for confidence. 

Yeah. 

Probably more so than competent.

It's because I know somebody who's confident I'll be able to teach a different way to do something. 

Yeah. 

And empower them. Somebody who's competent, who has grown up in this and has done the same thing the same way every single time and can't change. So again, it wasn't a, it wasn't like a A God. It's just like, I love confidence when it comes to people who are eager hungry.

You know, um, to, to, to a, to a point, right? There's, we all have interviewed, 

there's, there's spectrums 

we've all interviewed. Yeah. 

The, 

the, the individual that, you know, um, you know, we're hiring for, for maintenance and da da, da. I'd fix anything but.

What do you, what do you mean you can fix anything? You have now thrown down the gauntlet. What, what do you mean here? What does that mean? That's, 

that's a different kind of confidence. Here's a, here's a jet engine that's not working. Yeah. Will you do me a favor? Can you rebuild it and get it working?

That's, that's exactly right. That's a 

different, if you could fix anything, 

that's a different, I got a let your 

car outside, but, uh, 

yeah. Different, different kind of confidence there. But it, it's, you know, when, when, again, just when. We, we, we are in an employment crisis. We do have people coming out of the woodwork and, and that's great.

It's great. It's great. It's great. But confidence over competence. 

I, I almost think, I almost think that, that you have to take that question up a level. 

Sure. I mean, 

meaning, competence can be judged on a Ooh, 

nice. 

You know, they're both attributes we wanna hire for both of them, but I think it's like up one level, apples and oranges.

Okay. They're different things, but you have to grade them differently at the same level above. They're both fruit. 

Sure. Yeah. 

So what, what I'm getting at is here is confidence and competence are both things that we desire as employers, as leaders in the people that we lead. 

Okay. 

The missing piece, or I think the bridge that crosses those is perception.

Okay. Because in a customer service oriented business that we are, we need our customers to feel the confidence in our technicians that the technician, when they show up at the door before they put any tool to any repair, we need our resident to. See the confidence that the technician has, that they are competent to solve their issues.

Okay, so I think the, my answer to that is we've gotta add that perception piece. We need our technicians to understand why they need to be well dressed, stand up straight, clean, uh, uh, represent themselves and secondarily their employer and their property better. And that I think bridges that gap between competency and competency, if that's a thing.

So the question is, from a corporate standpoint, is more desirable. Based on our business model, based on the multifamily industry and what, you know, uhhuh, which is more desirable for an employee, for them to be confident or competent. 

Um, my honest opinion as I think they're more geared towards confidence because they want that resident experience.

They want the residents to be. Right. Like we, we care about our re we want our residents to be serviced and having confident 

mm-hmm. 

People makes residents feel better. 

Yes. Yeah. I, I, I, I think of it, I think of it from the other side of the coin though. I think that due to our labor shortages and the lack of training that we talk about ad nauseum, um, literally ad nauseum, I think that, you know, on a corporate level, um, they want competence.

You know they 

want 

No, that's, that's, that's, that's the, oh, 

that is the more 

desirable, that's, that's the more desirable, because you know, we can quote unquote, we can teach you soft skills. We can teach you how to provide good customer service. Yeah. We can't teach you how to change that three way switch, but here's the, so we want you to have the job knowledge, which is the company.

To that point, very 

large property. Um oh, oh, oh, okay. I get this. I can do it. I can do it. 

37 yards. God, these things are long. Well, well, well wait. The got a, oh, there's 

a blue. That must be the next, well, you got a fire pit. 

Whoa. Or you know, even,

you know, I know we went on this whole thing about being influencers and all of us are on Instagram. We all have YouTube channels. We're all podcast hosts and, and, and every sense of the being, we are influencers and. 

But I, I'm gonna debate you on that in a second, but I, 

yeah, go 

ahead. I'll let you finish your thought.

With all due, I know it's your show and all, but with all due respect. Wait, wait, wait. I just talked about wanting to look for somebody. You cynical here, grandpa ha goes sit in the corner. The, the grownups are talking, 

but where's my walker? Dammit. But that's what I think. And to, to quote the great Paul Rhodes, where the hell is he in, in order to, to, to, to quote the great great Paul Rhodes is.

You have to, I think people's definition of influencer,

I think there are multiple definitions of what influencer means, and so I, I, I want you to debate me, like I want you to, to, to go on that road, but I guess it depends on what your definition of influencer means versus what I, when I say that we're all influencers because. I, I mean, I want to influence people to come to the multifamily industry.

I want want to influence maintenance individuals to invest in themselves because their companies aren't gonna do it. 

Yeah. Yes. 

So I want to, I want people to see me doing stuff like this. Being an advocate for maintenance. Mm-hmm. To help put some spotlight on the fact that we have a problem. We have a huge problem.

And like, so when I say I'm an influencer, that's what I mean by I'm trying to influence people to, to say, okay, listen, I'm gonna have to take this on myself. No one's gonna pay for me to go do this. No one's gonna do. Like, no one's gonna, no one's gonna, okay. Okay. You know, so that, that's what I mean by by influencer.

But 

yeah, lemme, and, and, and you're right. I, I think that's, that's the overarching goal. It's one of the reasons why we do what we do both in our work mm-hmm. And our work lives, our volunteer lives. Yes. And our, you know, for lack of a better term, our side hustle lives. Our, the thing, the thing that fills our cup don't, I think of influencer with the negative connotation that the society.

Now put on. Sure. Sure. Yeah. 

The definition of social media influencer versus interpersonal influencer Right. Is a different one. 

Right. You know, I, I, you know, I think I've said this to you before is, and it is a, listen, I know my faults, and I know it sounds arrogant for me to say this. I don't want to be an influencer.

I want to have influence. Sure, sure. But I'm, I'm gonna take it one step further to, to even take the word influence out of what I want to be, and it's more in line what I think. What you just said was, is you, I don't want to be an influencer. I wanna be an advocate. 

Yes. 

Yep. I want to be a change agent. And that here, you wanna throw some LinkedIn buzzwords there.

Right. That's what I want and that's what that would bring me. Success 'cause an influencer to me, in the simplest of definitions, 

Uhhuh 

is somebody that all they do is post pictures of. Right. All they do is repost or recycle other people's content. 

Yeah. I want 

originality. I want advocacy. I do not want to post 4, 5, 6 times a day.

Yeah. 

I want you to know from my advocacy, when you see something from me. You should stop and read it. Yeah. And not scroll by. When you see a video from me, whether it's a repost or it's something original, it has something to say. Right. 

You're not just copy, paste, repeat Yeah. Whatever. For the li For the algorithm.

Yeah. 

For the, for there it is. It is. 

I'm not feeding, I'm not feeding the beast. When I, when I post on me personally, when I post or repost or comment or like. I'm not feeding the beast. I'm feeding myself. 

Right. Yeah. I get it.

Should be better at it. Right? Um,

get over the creek.

Nice.

Yes. Oh yes. Right 

there. Okay. I, I love it. What started off as two t's in my pocket

of those words.

Thank you very much for joining us, everybody. This was the, that was, that was so cool. You saw me line that up. I saw you line that up.

Oh.

Wow, that looks great. Ball. Chris,

what is actually fun? Uh, for, for Allison and I, the, the two of us have gotten into golf together. 

That's great. 

Oh, that's cool. And, and she we're learning on her playing, but she has a, like a back issue and so she can't play like for an extended period of time, but. It's time that the two of us get to spend together.

Oh yeah. Yes. 

And and she loves it. She loves driving the golf cart and she loves seeing the courses and she's, you know, and the occasional great shot, you know, it makes me feel like a hero 'cause I hit a good ball and uh, she says, wow, that was really great. 

And you have somebody important in your life that was there to witness it.

Right, right, right. My biggest fear one day is playing golf alone, hitting a hole in one and having no one to 

miss. Yep. 

I hit a hole in one. Was somebody there? No. Well, then it doesn't count. They're like bullshit. It does count. I was diagnosed. Yeah. 

How many times do our maintenance technicians do great and amazing things and get zero, zero credit?

Because nobody ever sees it. 

Nobody saw it. Nobody was there. How many, and you know what? That's what they get paid for. Yes. That's exactly right. That's, that's the response 

they'll get. Well, 

that's great. 

You just did what I'm paying you to do. 

That's exactly right. And okay, but why? If you're good with what I'm doing, why do you keep adding more back to a previous conversation that's there?

Tell me 

that's a park. 

Tell me what is it. Thank you. 

Yes, 

thank you 

sir. 

So thank you very you very much for the conversation and just having, just being able to just, just talk, you know, I think that's one of the reasons why I started this, this series was it's one thing we, we talk all the time. We do, but we're always behind our camera.

We're always at work. We're in a boardroom, we're at a meeting, we're at a national conference, and we're, we're seeing each other between a 10 minute break because you gotta go to this meeting, I gotta go to this meeting. Or like, and, and Chris has gotta go to three meetings. Chris, what do you mean? At the same time?

At the same time. 

That's what I'm saying. At the same time. And I just, I, I, while yes, we can have conversations and some of the stuff we talked about today, we've discussed personally. Before, but something about getting out of the boardroom, getting out from behind your desk and just being out and just coming along and doing something fun, like playing golf.

I mean, I say fun. I love golf. You all may hate. No, that was fun. Great. This was 

a blast 

crate, by the way, but, uh, I just, you know, I, I, it's different and, and I, I, I enjoy it and, uh, I hope, I hope you all. Did, did as well and just, uh, I, but again, I really appreciate the conversation and, um, you know, maybe we'll do it again some time.

Yeah. We'll be here next 

time. 

Time in warmer 

climate. Yeah. Yes, 

definitely. Definitely. Hey, what.